by the definition - an performer or singer is an artist
whether one likes said art or is a "good" or "bad" artist is a different story
singing is an art - it doesn't have to be one's own song
dancing is an art - it doesn't have to be one's own dance
rapping is an art - it doesn't have to be one's own rap
by the definition - an performer or singer is an artist
Are cheerleaders artists?
Are a cover band artists?
Is an Elvis Impersonator an artist?
There's nuance to be had and declarative statements that anyone who performs is an artist I think fall short of the mark.
Is a juggler an artist? Is a magician an artist?
I honestly think Artist is a bit of a word that is very much "eye of the beholder", it's interpreted in many ways by many people. Some take it to mean any performer. Others take it to mean people who actually create.
And so people arguing the point are really arguing about the definition of what "artist" means rather then is "x" an artist.
I more prescribe to the "artist" is a person who creates. Someone who makes a song, or does a painting, or does a sculputre etc - they are an artist in the original meaning of the word. Someone who creates something wholecloth from their vision. Whereas a person who is following instructions laid down by others, particularly as regimented as they are in an industry like kpop, even if they are trying to intepret themselves, are more performers then artists.
But in the end the argument here isn't about kpop, it's really just how people interpret the word "artist".
Display MoreIs a cook at a good restaurant that makes dishes the Head Chef did the hard work to design, test and first make the artist, or is the Head Chef the artist? Even if the cook recreates the dish beautifully, time after time, are they an artist or just very talented?
I've long held that I don't think the majority of idols are.
They are (usually) very talented people and are very driven, but they are all mostly in a field where the true creative side of things is done by others. Most idols are the canvas upon which other peoples work is projected. They are the beautiful model that the fashion designer and make up artist displays their artistry through. And like I keep saying, idols work in a manufactured industry where a lot of the work they do is also heavily processed, focus grouped, sanitized, drafted and moved through so many hands that even those "other peoples" artistry is diluted down more. I also strongly suspect that for many idols, that is perfectly fine, being the "canvas".
Of course some idols do break the mold, when they eventually get enough clout and power to be able to start pushing their own work and artistry, Taemin-Identity pointed out a few. In saying that, I don't always thinking having writing/choreo credits necessarily pushes and idol to that higher level of artist unless they also have creative control and some degree of final say over the final product.
It's why some creatives and artists have disdain for the mainstream. It's why people with their own artistic drive sometimes don't throw their lot in with a big company, but prefer to go it on their own. Even if success isn't guaranteed.
I wanted to quote you, because I agree with your take, you said it really well.
I've always been torn on this, because I've performed music myself but never truly felt like an artist, despite doing it for years. I've always thought that an artist is someone who creates art and in the case of idols, most of the time they only perform the art and someone else is actually creating it. Some groups are so highly manufactured that basically everything is ready made from them - from music, to outfits, they're even told how to behave or perform. They only need to show up and learn everything. Then other idols have some sort of input - either writing lyrics, composing or producing. They really do take part in the creative process, so I would call them artists.
I don't want to diminish anyone's hard work and dedication here - I know they spend countless hours learning the song and practicing the choreos, in order to perfect everything. We could also say they may give their own input into the performances or the choice of outfits sometimes, but does it make them artists or it only means they're dedicated performers?
I thought about this a lot in the past and it's not an easy thing to decide. But in general, if some idols only learn and perform things created by other people, then I find it hard to call them artists and would rather call them performers.
Edit: I also want to say, I haven't voted, because I can't fully make up my mind.
Display Moreby the definition - an performer or singer is an artist
whether one likes said art or is a "good" or "bad" artist is a different story
singing is an art - it doesn't have to be one's own song
dancing is an art - it doesn't have to be one's own dance
rapping is an art - it doesn't have to be one's own rap
You have a point but there's one thing that makes me think - if some idols only sing/dance/rap in the way already planned by someone, can it also be art? What I mean is if they have exact instructions, follow the choreo created by someone else etc. Then these idols don't give any creative input themselves, they don't give their own expression of the art of music, but instead follow something created by someone else.
It's a very interesting topic in general and I guess it depends on everyone's definition of art and artist.
I've always had a hard time fully seeing performing as an art, especially if it's an imitation of something already created by someone else, like an exact cover of a song (and I don't just mean it about idols, I had the same thoughts before discovering kpop).
Display MoreAre cheerleaders artists?
Are a cover band artists?
Is an Elvis Impersonator an artist?
There's nuance to be had and declarative statements that anyone who performs is an artist I think fall short of the mark.
Is a juggler an artist? Is a magician an artist?
I honestly think Artist is a bit of a word that is very much "eye of the beholder", it's interpreted in many ways by many people. Some take it to mean any performer. Others take it to mean people who actually create.
And so people arguing the point are really arguing about the definition of what "artist" means rather then is "x" an artist.
I more prescribe to the "artist" is a person who creates. Someone who makes a song, or does a painting, or does a sculputre etc - they are an artist in the original meaning of the word. Someone who creates something wholecloth from their vision. Whereas a person who is following instructions laid down by others, particularly as regimented as they are in an industry like kpop, even if they are trying to intepret themselves, are more performers then artists.
But in the end the argument here isn't about kpop, it's really just how people interpret the word "artist".
well superyeah did include the definition of performing artist and I think that would satisfy that definition
"An artist is a person engaged in an activity related to creating art, practicing the arts, or demonstrating an art. The most common usage (in both everyday speech and academic discourse) refers to a practitioner in the visual arts only."
from wikipedia
those are all valid questions of what it means to be an artist
personally I would include those who perform or follow recipes to be also an art but a different form of art
for example in music we have song writing that is a very different art than composition or production or the mirad of other behind the scenes work which may be described as art
now I think we can all agree that each different talent or skill or "art" is separate and a person can have one or more or none of such skills
in terms of the performance aspect though - the closest I equate singing to is acting
no one shits on an actor for not writing their own lines or the script or directing or cinematography etc etc
maybe then we should call the performance part of the process - the singing/dancing/acting/rapping etc etc performance art maybe
You have a point but there's one thing that makes me think - if some idols only sing/dance/rap in the way already planned by someone, can it also be art? What I mean is if they have exact instructions, follow the choreo created by someone else etc. Then these idols don't give any creative input themselves, they don't give their own expression of the art of music, but instead follow something created by someone else.
It's a very interesting topic in general and I guess it depends on everyone's definition of art and artist.
I've always had a hard time fully seeing performing as an art, especially if it's an imitation of something already created by someone else, like an exact cover of a song (and I don't just mean it about idols, I had the same thoughts before discovering kpop).
as I wrote above to disevidence
maybe we call it performance art to differentiate the performance aspect of things vs the creation of the thing itself
and I use acting as an example
as I wrote above to disevidence
maybe we call it performance art to differentiate the performance aspect of things vs the creation of the thing itself
and I use acting as an example
I like your explanation, especially the comparison to acting. That's a good approach, we can accept that there are different forms of arts and artistic expression, but they're all art in the end.
Most idols are not artist.
Their concept, music, image are made and decided by label without them being part of decisions. They are no more than employee follows what boss wants.
Only some of YG idols and OG Ador that I can consider as an Artist.
OG Ador + NJ broke the stereotype since MHJ involved NJ members in shaping their own concept. She has prepared them to be independent artist in future.
You don't have to produce everything yourself. Then that's mean they are a producer. To me, being an artist means transferring your emotions to performance. And not every idol can do this, maybe they just do the choreography, but most idol definitely add their own unique dance to their performance. Do you think everyone's dancing and singing are the same? That's why I think every idol singer who shows something different is artist. I think everyone who shows a creative and different side is an artist, whether it is dancing or singing style. I don't think the choreography provided by the company hides some idol artistry.
Artist is a pretty general term but I do think their is at least a somewhat agreed upon definition in music. This is from google: A music artist is a person who creates, performs, and produces music as a form of artistic expression.
By that definition, can we call all idols artists? No, though they don't all get the opportunity to produce their own music and some may just not want to. But I prefer to think of it in the general sense or by this other definition from google: a person skilled at a particular task or occupation. In that sense I would say all idols are artists. I even consider the work that I do to be "art" in a sense.
Basically to me an artist is someone who is both creative and a hard worker. Someone who is conscientious of the work they do, knows where they need to improve if any, and works hard each day to do so. And overall they deeply care about whatever it is they are producing. Whether that be through more traditional "arts" like painting or music, or something like engineering, it is all art to me. The Idols I like most are the ones you can really feel this passion coming from.
Everybody knows the dictionary definition of an artist, but in SK idols are called idols for a reason, bc they don't create their art. I can't say for sure if it was GD who started it in kpop, but he always made sure to call himself an artist, he distanced himself from the idol image bc he actually create things and after him and BB we could see way more "idols" involved in the productions, songs, concepts so in kpop idols that don't work in any part of the process are idols.
It doesn't need to be much, as long as you put your ideas in some parts is already enough to be an artist. I know singing is an art, but how many of these kpop singers can go solo and sound good live? How many can sustain their solo career based solely on their singing or rapping ability? Being a performer isn't easy too, not every idol is a performer, not every idol is a singer, not every idol is a rapper so idols are idols and artists are artists.
I do think ALL idols are hard workers that deserve praise for their resilience, bravery and strong mind to keep going in such a toxic and exhausting environment, but in kpop there was always this difference and it wasn't done by fans. The companies created this narrative to keep in power even more.
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