Does people think IVE is successful bc Kakao is some charity company or something?

    It's absolutely ridiculous how I keep seeing people thinking IVE have some kind of infinite bank account only because Starship is owned by Kakao.

    Do you guys genuinely think larger rich companies are some charity that buy smaller companies so they can donate most of the money they make to them regardless of the profit they make, like some kind of sugar daddy that is there to satisfy all of their subsidiary needs? Cause thats the most stupid and naive idea I've seen.

    Every Kakao subsidiary, similar to most subsidiaries from other companies, receive a limited amount of money that help with the subsidiary resources, but it's the subsidiary main job to generate income for itself and be self sustained, a subsidiary only receiving money from their main company instead of using the own money they generate does not exist or that would just be the perfect place for money laundry. In fact it's the opposite, larger companies buy smaller ones so the profit they make go to them.

    Is there any clown who thinks Hybe bought Pledis so they could help a bg that sell millions per cb become richer instead of redirecting their sales profit? 💀

    Idk who started this, but yall dumb af

  • Moderator

    Approved the thread.

    The "big budget" accusations.. I couldn't laugh harder lmfao

    They constantly repeat outfits, eleven and love dive sets were medium sized budget at most. But hey. Anything to drag them I guess??

    People suddenly include Kakao as IVE's privilege when Kakao were never even an idol company like SM, JYP, YG and Hybe.


    They thought that a subsidiary can used any money from their parent money lol.

    Quote from Girl Crush Concept (445)

    The "big budget" accusations.. I couldn't laugh harder lmfao

    They constantly repeat outfits, eleven and love dive sets were medium sized budget at most. But hey. Anything to drag them I guess??

    Exactly people have to be really dumb or disingenous to think Kakao is throwing their income at Starship when they have much bigger business to focus on that give them billions and it's Starship that must bring profit to them, not the opposite. The IWS sample was negotiated for months because Starship did not had the money at the time to buy it.

    If Starship didn't generate money they would vanish from the competition, similar to how Gfriend disbanded cause they weren't giving profits to Hybe and Source had to debut Lesserafim in a rush so they could regain that profit. Starship only managed to stay stable in the game because even though their other groups aren't super popular and successful like IVE, they have stable sales (100k to 400k each) and one of them brings extra money from concerts. Most of that money will go to Kakao and a smaller porcentage will stay with Starship to reinvest. In exchange Kakao may help with connection and resources, and that's the bare minimum when you own a subsidiary and want them to keep bringing you profit. Anything else like music production, styling, administration etc is on Starship's back. Large companies aren't a charity house where they buy subsidiaries just so they can give them resources for free 💀

    Quote from Man Crush Concept (848)

    People suddenly include Kakao as IVE's privilege when Kakao were never even an idol company like SM, JYP, YG and Hybe.


    They thought that a subsidiary can used any money from their parent money lol.

    It's even more ironic when IU stans say that, I've seen one even go as far to say IU made Kakao as big as it is when Kakao was already a billionaire company when they bought her label ^^ if they think it was IU's talent and charisma that made her big and not her company, they really should keep their mouth shut when talking about IVE's supposed "privilege", because even before Loen was acquired by Kakao it was still 50x bigger than Starship.

    Quote from Chogiwa (585)

    you expect teenagers to know these? basic math is even hard to grasp let alone how subsidiary works

    Most of them have the same age as me (in their 20s) this is basic common sense you dont even have to be a pro at math to understand how it works. Its fine if they don't understand that, but if they don't, the least they could do is stay silent instead of spreading false info about something they have no idea how it work.

    Quote from OP

    It's even more ironic when IU stans say that, I've seen one even go as far to say IU made Kakao as big as it is when Kakao was already a billionaire company when they bought her label ^^ if they think it was IU's talent and charisma that made her big and not her company, they really should keep their mouth shut when talking about IVE's supposed "privilege", because even before Loen was acquired by Kakao it was still 50x bigger than Starship.

    no IU stans say that wtf you are talking about

    as if IU stans are the one fighting with IVE stans everyday here

    stop project on others lmao

    Quote from Kwangya Dweller (454)

    no IU stans say that wtf you are talking about

    as if IU stans are the one fighting with IVE stans everyday here

    stop project on others lmao

    Thread
    Did IU became the biggest singer in Korea because of Kakao privilege?
    I want to know, because if it applies to IVE surely it can be applied to her as well.
    OP
    Quote from OP

    before Loen was acquired by Kakao it was still 50x bigger than Starship.

    Just to correct an info: it was actually LOEN that bought 70% of Starship 3 years before being acquired by Kakao

    Quote from OP
    Thread
    Did IU became the biggest singer in Korea because of Kakao privilege?
    I want to know, because if it applies to IVE surely it can be applied to her as well.
    OP

    IU is well known for growing Loen's agency division, allowing them to reach a point where they could purchase subsidiaries like Starship. Either way picking this fight with IU fans is dumb when they're not even the ones making up all the sajaegi and kakao privilege threads. You want Ive to have even more enemies?


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    Quote from OP

    It's even more ironic when IU stans say that, I've seen one even go as far to say IU made Kakao as big as it is when Kakao was already a billionaire company when they bought her label ^^ if they think it was IU's talent and charisma that made her big and not her company, they really should keep their mouth shut when talking about IVE's supposed "privilege", because even before Loen was acquired by Kakao it was still 50x bigger than Starship.

    2 year old kpop fans coming here on forums and spewing nonsense. Loen was a nothing company and it was not a rich company. yeah it owned melon but that was during 2009 which was after almost 2 years of IU debut. It had no successful act beside IU so they started buying other company shares long before. and when IU had dating news during that time company share fell almost $120 million which shows how much dependence they had on her. sometimes people forget that IU debuted in 2008. they see the successful company now and they think that it was like that long before. Give it 5 more years and new kpop stans will come here and tell that HYBE was rich long before BTS and HYBE made BTS

    Quote from Delightful Anons Poster (400)

    2 year old kpop fans coming here on forums and spewing nonsense. Loen was a nothing company and it was not a rich company. yeah it owned melon but that was during 2009 which was after almost 2 years of IU debut. It had no successful act beside IU so they started buying other company shares long before. and when IU had dating news during that time company share fell almost $120 million which shows how much dependence they had on her. sometimes people forget that IU debuted in 2008. they see the successful company now and they think that it was like that long before. Give it 5 more years and new kpop stans will come here and tell that HYBE was rich long before BTS and HYBE made BTS

    Please Loen exist since the 70s it's older than most kpop companies if not all

    Either way it just prove that Kakao privilege is bullshit

    Quote from You Can Call Me Monster (694)

    IU is well known for growing Loen's agency division, allowing them to reach a point where they could purchase subsidiaries like Starship. Either way picking this fight with IU fans is dumb when they're not even the ones making up all the sajaegi and kakao privilege threads. You want Ive to have even more enemies?


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    I am aware that IU's success made her company increase in every metric and it's her merit. I'm only pointing the double standard between IU and IVE. If you think I want a fanwar for pointing it out then the joke's on you, you should increase your reading comprehension skills instead of being angry for nothing.

    Quote from OP

    It's even more ironic when IU stans say that, I've seen one even go as far to say IU made Kakao as big as it is when Kakao was already a billionaire company when they bought her label ^^ if they think it was IU's talent and charisma that made her big and not her company, they really should keep their mouth shut when talking about IVE's supposed "privilege", because even before Loen was acquired by Kakao it was still 50x bigger than Starship.

    Quote from OP

    I am aware that IU's success made her company increase in every metric and it's her merit. I'm only pointing the double standard between IU and IVE. If you think I want a fanwar for pointing it out then the joke's on you, you should increase your reading comprehension skills instead of being angry for nothing.

    You may not have intended it, but from your words it does seem like you’re implying that it’s IU stans who are taking a dig at IVE.

    Quote from OP

    I am aware that IU's success made her company increase in every metric and it's her merit. I'm only pointing the double standard between IU and IVE. If you think I want a fanwar for pointing it out then the joke's on you, you should increase your reading comprehension skills instead of being angry for nothing.

    Kakao privilege is fake but there is absolutely a difference between IU and IVE lol, Loen in 2008 is way different than Starship in 2021, bigger in gap than 2021 Starship vs the Big 4. IU's debut flopped for a reason. Your OP isn't wrong but let's not pretend Ive are starting from the same place. It would be like Blackpink fans pretending like they started the same place as Big Bang just because they're from the same agency.

    Quote from Encore Stage Critic (459)

    You may not have intended it, but from your words it does seem like you’re implying that it’s IU stans who are taking a dig at IVE.

    Because they did say that in that thread. So it was ironic as I've seen a couple IU fans mention the IVE's Kakao privilege on main, though they are definitely not the ones that mention it all the time as a form to downplay IVE. It wasn't an attack on all of IU fans, but I should've clarified. Apologies.

    Quote from OP

    Because they did say that in that thread. So it was ironic as I've seen a couple IU fans mention the IVE's Kakao privilege on main, though they are definitely not the ones that mention it all the time as a form to downplay IVE. It wasn't an attack on all of IU fans, but I should've clarified. Apologies.

    When they mention it, they get shutdown by others pointing out that if there is a kakao privilege, then why are WJSN, Weeekly not a booming success?


    I think you have misread couple of users and making a big deal out of it.


    Ive doesn't have the privilege the Big 4 have.

    But Ive is not from a nugu agency, which will go bust with couple of failures, look how long WJSN has gone, that's where kakao:s money helps.

    IU and Ive are not comparable in anyway, the industry and the companies are in entirely different places.


    Whatever you are saying, the tone of it is as though you are challenging IU stans.

    I honestly feel like the people acting like Starship doesn't benefit from being under Kakao are straight up stupid.


    How are you going to speak on if Starship gets money or connections from their literal parent company when you never even stepped foot into the company office? You guys don't work there or know just how they chose to allocate their funds. Every company runs differently. Literally look at HYBE and SM. They also have subsidiaries but they run them as similarly as night and day.


    How Kakao does their business with their subsidiaries behind the scenes none of you can say unless you have their financial reports or a spy that tracks their every back door dealings.


    And just because some Kakao groups flop doesn't mean they lack in resources or connections. For example, The Boyz who were literally flops everywhere else won Melon award over Stray Kidz in 2018. The Boyz who are a Kakao group. Kakao who owns melon.


    If some groups do better than others it could simply mean that not all their groups are treated the same. Or if they are given some boost here and there but flop they just don't have the talent or luck to hit it big.

    See this is where you're also overexaggerating Kakao's help.

    Starship first group was Sistar that was an absolute success on charts. That was before Loen/Kakao bought Starship.

    Then there was Boyfriend that had decent fanbase and started making enough money in Japan (basically became a jpop group, but they also did a couple of concerts in other countries).

    Then Monsta X debuted (this is after Loen) and started making decent amount money overseas and from concerts.

    WJSN wasn't as big money wise from other groups but was a collaboration between Starship and Yuehua that is bigger and richer than the former. WJSN was more popular in Korea than Boyfriend and Monsta X. Nowadays their subunits with only 4 members sell 80k, that's a pretty decent amount.

    Then there's Cravity that at debut sold over 100k thanks to the exposure of members in Produce.

    With all the decent money Starship made with their groups that's enough for the company to sustain itself. Again the main help from Kakao is connection and resources as it's the least it should do if they own Starship and want to keep generating profit.

    That's what I've been trying to explain the whole time. I don't know about Loen enough, but if it's been active since the 70s I'm pretty sure they had decent success to sustain itself before IU and Kakao showed up too.

    You are calling The Boyz flops but in 2018 they did better than SKZ on kcharts. You may not hear much about them internationally but they have a solid korean fanbase. SKZ only started getting bigger in 2020 when they released God's Menu and still, it was mostly among ifans. So it seems you don't even have enough basis to know what you're talking about.

    And of course Starship benefit from Kakao. If you had read my op, you'd know that I said giving resources and connections is the least that can be done for a subsidiary if the main company want bigger profit. It still is Starship job to generate money for itself cause a share of the profit go to Kakao, and that's just basic common sense. We don't have to know their deal to be aware of that.

    Quote from Encore Stage Analyst (509)

    For example, The Boyz who were literally flops everywhere else won Melon award over Stray Kidz in 2018. The Boyz who are a Kakao group. Kakao who owns melon.

    For this example, there is contrary example, where Melon played with dates to exclude IU's Love Poem from even eligibility for both 2019 and 2020.. it was GDA that gave her the Daesangs.


    So frankly we don't know - how things work in the Kakao world of things.


    All we can say is Kakao acts

    - don't have the privilege that the Big 4 have, where their groups can sell out even before debut etc.

    - but neither are they some nugu which can't stay afloat if the group flops a couple of times are so.

    - and within Kakao acts, there is a huge variety in success/treatment from IU to Weeekly(?)

    Kakao acts do have some nugu acts though. You just don't hear about them. For example, no one remembers Victon, and that's the least "nugu" nugu group under Kakao that I can mention. There is a vast variety of labels under Kakao and if it's not generating enough profit it's gonna be cut or stay in nugudom. Sistar was killing on charts before Kakao's acquisition, so even without Kakao there was always a chance that more Starship groups would do well with gp/charts.

    Even after selling millions, IVE still is seen always repeating outfits so it's unlikely that Kakao's budget is that much of a help for Starship.

    Quote from OP

    You are calling The Boyz flops but in 2018 they did better than SKZ on kcharts. You may not hear much about them internationally but they have a solid korean fanbase. SKZ only started getting bigger in 2020 when they released God's Menu and still, it was mostly among ifans. So it seems you don't even have enough basis to know what you're talking about.

    And of course Starship benefit from Kakao. If you had read my op, you'd know that I said giving resources and connections is the least that can be done for a subsidiary if the main company want bigger profit. It still is Starship job to generate money for itself cause a share of the profit go to Kakao, and that's just basic common sense. We don't have to know their deal to be aware of that.

    I don't follow boy groups. And if YOU read what I said, you would have noticed I said for the boys who were flops " everywhere else" meaning outside of Korea. I know The Boyz were popular in Korea. The point was, The Boyz were from a small company and Stray Kidz were from a big 3 company. And based on what people are saying, the big 3 companies afford more power and connections. It's not as if JYP hasn't payola their group awards before. I won't name names, but we know who. But yet Stray Kids still lost to a so called "small company"?

    IU is not an idol. Why are you guys acting surprised that award shows would skimp on her when idol fans are their main audience? IU is not the only artist who has been overlooked at awards shows in favor of idols. Melon is also not the on one who has skimped on her either. Rarely do solo artists get awarded anything.

    The point of mentioning WJSN and Weeekly (which you ignored), is to establish that merely being under a Kakao subsidiary is not enough of a guarantee for success, therefore 'Kakao privilege' does not exist.


    Otherwise each act under Kakao or under Starship have their own history and dynamics, with different results.


    IU and Loen, - Loen as a part of SK group was into publishing some educational videos etc., since 1970s. They got into trying to build a music act, only in late 2000s and only IU out of all their attempts succeeded. Corporate moves ended with Loen buying Melon and Kakao buying Loen etc.,

    Other than IU Loen had no in-house success, so she is the primary reason for they existing as a production house. But even without IU - they were doing fine in music publication/distribution, as SK, as Melon etc., - how is their other business relevant to Kpop beats me.


    At this point, I have totally lost what your original premise was.


    Success needs many factors, it is impossible to ask/answer questions like

    Would have IVE succeeded without being Starship?

    Would have Starship succeeded without Kakao - is SISTAR was successful they why did they sell to LOEN?


    There are no answer to the questions.

    IVEs-antis, will give some nonsensical takes like Kakao privilege.


    That is best laughed at and move on.

    Quote from Encore Stage Analyst (509)

    I don't follow boy groups. And if YOU read what I said, you would have noticed I said for the boys who were flops " everywhere else" meaning outside of Korea. I know The Boyz were popular in Korea. The point was, The Boyz were from a small company and Stray Kidz were from a big 3 company. And based on what people are saying, the big 3 companies afford more power and connections. It's not as if JYP hasn't payola their group awards before. I won't name names, but we know who. But yet Stray Kids still lost to a so called "small company"?

    Your comment implied that The Boyz won because they are from Kakao, but there was basis for that as a korean award show would obviously award the strongest group in Korea. If korean award shows cared about international popularity Everglow would be one of the first to be awarded. And it is true that bigger companies have some fishy award wins, but each case is a case, and I bet TBZ lost some awards to SKZ in that year as well. Those award shows vary in how they pick a group as winner.

    Quote from Encore Stage Analyst (509)

    IU is not an idol. Why are you guys acting surprised that award shows would skimp on her when idol fans are their main audience? IU is not the only artist who has been overlooked at awards shows in favor of idols. Melon is also not the on one who has skimped on her either. Rarely do solo artists get awarded anything

    IU has more daesangs than most 'idol' groups. She would be in the top 10 of acts with daesangs.

    MAMA is the only one which has not given her a Daesang, all others have.


    This one incident by Melon is no evidence that she is overlooked by award orgs.


    What, did she bulldoze your faves, and their record won't exist if IU is an idol - rather convenient to declare her as a non-idol, is it?

    Quote from OP

    Your comment implied that The Boyz won because they are from Kakao, but there was basis for that as a korean award show would obviously award the strongest group in Korea. If korean award shows cared about international popularity Everglow would be one of the first to be awarded. And it is true that bigger companies have some fishy award wins, but each case is a case, and I bet TBZ lost some awards to SKZ in that year as well. Those award shows vary in how they pick a group as winner.

    SKZ won ROTY in all other award shows but MMA.

    IU has always been massively overlooked by award shows because she is not an idol group with large voting fandom or from a large idol agency. The reason she has a lot of daesangs is because she's stayed on top for so long (spanning 12 years), not because award shows have been fair to her.


    She's never won a daesang from Seoul Music Awards (SOTY and Album of the year aren't daesangs there) an in fact never even received a bonsang for 10 years between 2011 and 2021. Yep, read that again. Not even a BONSANG.


    GDA conveniently sliced off eligibility period that included "Good Day" in 2011. MMA conveniently sliced off eligibility period that included Love Poem in 2020. MAMA doesn't even need to be said.


    Saying IU is often overlooked/discounted by (predominantly idol group) award shows is not an insult to IU so stop getting defensive about it. This is said from an IU fan btw.

    It is irrelevant whether you are an IU fan or not, whether it is an insult or not, when discussing data.


    No Bonsangs between 2011 and 2021 - are you talking only SMA or only Album?


    Because I do recollect digital Bonsangs from GDA in 2018, well Daesangs are awarded only on Bonsangs. Will get home and check for the rest.


    Secondly, if awards aren't meant for soloist,, why even nominate her?

    It is illogical to nominate her a bunch of times along with idol groups, if she is not considered an idol.


    Thirdly, there is multitude of Kpop idol groups which have never recieved any nominations, forget awards, so do they cease being idols?


    Fourth,

    Whether award orgs are being fair or unfair, I am pretty sure every fandom has an opinion about that, whenever their faves didn't get awarded, Hardly unique to IU.


    WHERE is this thread even heading.

    Anyway all that matters is that IU considers herself as an idol.


    Is there anybody in the Kpop industry who can go up to her and declare "You are not an idol, but an artist"..


    Her reaction to that would be wonderful to watch.

    She never received a bonsang from Seoul Music Awards from 2011-2021 and she didnt receive bonsangs from GDA between 2011 Nagging bonsang and her daesang for Through the Night i'm 2017. It's pure fact that IU has historically been overlooked by award shows compared to popular idol groups with similar or worse digital charting. Cant believe you can even call yourself an IU fan and say with a straight face there's no evidence that she's been overlooked.


    You are the only person who always gets their pants in a bunch when someone says IU isn't an idol. Many people in Korea feel the same way, it's subjective opinion regardless of how IU sees herself because idol persona is fluid and contextual. Stop getting so triggered.

    Quote from You Can Call Me Monster (694)

    She never received a bonsang from Seoul Music Awards from 2011-2021 and she didnt receive bonsangs from GDA between 2011 Nagging bonsang and her daesang for Through the Night i'm 2017. It's pure fact that IU has historically been overlooked by award shows compared to popular idol groups with similar or worse digital charting. Cant believe you can even call yourself an IU fan and say with a straight face there's no evidence that she's been overlooked.


    You are the only person who always gets their pants in a bunch when someone says IU isn't an idol. Many people in Korea feel the same way, it's subjective opinion regardless of how IU sees herself because idol persona is fluid and contextual. Stop getting so triggered.

    I am not the one sounding "triggered", you are though.


    And I never denied that IU isn't marginalized, particularly by MAMA. Just that I am objective enough the other fandoms can also claim the same.


    The last but one sentence - I agree with. Idol persona is fluid and comes in a range.


    Stay cool.

    Also: the entire point is that IU is treated differently than idol groups at most award shows. Nominations are cheap. The winners are political/fandom-driven. Soloists are often paid dust, even ones that were originally idols. How many daesangs has Zico won? It doesn't matter if IU sees herself the same as idol groups (which I guarantee she doesn't lol) when the industry treats her differently.

    Quote from Longevity (694)

    I am not the one sounding "triggered", you are though.

    Literally every time on this forum someone points out that IU is treated differently than conventional idols (whether treated differently by fans, media, award shows, wherever), you're there complaining about how IU sees herself as an idol and is as much an idol as anyone else.


    Award shows have historically treated her differently than idol groups. This is a fact.

    Quote from OP

    60% of the criteria for the main awards in 2018 MMA consisted of digital sales and only 20% of online voting and judge score each so that explain what I already said


    tenor.gif

    I didn't say anything related to it, I was just confirming you were right here:


    Quote from OP

    but each case is a case, and I bet TBZ lost some awards to SKZ in that year as well.

    Quote from You Can Call Me Monster (694)

    Literally every time on this forum someone points out that IU is treated differently than conventional idols (whether treated differently by fans, media, award shows, wherever), you're there complaining about how IU sees herself as an idol and is as much an idol as anyone else.


    Award shows have historically treated her differently than idol groups. This is a fact.

    I don't know how much of an IU fan I am, but you sure are, so pissed about how awards treat her.


    But again "treating differently" can be due to variety of reasons, other idols groups have also complained about their treatment.


    And IU could be treated differently by her sheer undeniability, success and longevity.


    Let that be. As to IU'opinions on idols, my source is her Pieces documentary where she states,


    She doesn't believe that artist is different from idol, musician is different from idol.

    She doesn't believe one is better than the other.


    If she weren't considering herself as being an idol, then why make such statements.


    I am not denying that many others see her as grown beyond being an idol, but to her it is in continuation..


    OP must be wondering how it turned into an IU thread.

    Quote from Longevity (694)

    If she weren't considering herself as being an idol, then why make such statements.

    The original statement was that award shows have often stiffed IU because they don't treat her like an idol. Your derailment about how IU sees herself is irrelevant to the original point. And you won't find any other idol with as much chart success that did not receive a single bonsang from either GDA or SMA from 2011-2018 (until 2021 for SMA).

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