Are high notes worth regressing?

Quote from SendFoodPics

It wasn't a collab it was the candy cover oops. I saw it as some sort of edit on youtube and that's when I noticed some of the problems. Basically she's lost her consistent support, she was the Mamamoo member that was most consistent throughout their career and she's lost her coordination with C5s. I don't know if it's nerves but she's always been the one with the strongest mix but now is very closed, less strong, and can be shallow on her lows. It's low AA for sure, but how low is the question. I think her best moments are like Pink Fantasy's Yechan honestly, she's gotten some okay mixed notes but nothing compared to her earlier level in Mamamoo. Regression is common, it's possible she is going though something hard and her vocals have been effected, and she will later improve. I'm just surprised because I initially thought her solo had a lack of proper support because she was trying for indie style in that and lowering her larynx to get a more emotional sound but no it seems to be an actual issue....

Solar has basically been fixing her problems with her vibrating jaw, tendency to be really chesty and her high larynx problems. She tends to go all out when belting but is now in check with her technique, and more importantly working on her air pressure problems in her highest range. I think she could be above AA and be fighting for AA-C if she continues this improvement, it's a pretty significant one because those problems held her back. Even her predebut auditions had this problem with Solar singing Whitney I believe, and it's a good improvement to make. I think again, it's been happening for over a year now. Slow and steady added up. I think at one point she will reach Raina level.

What I've always thought about their mixes was that Solar always uses so much volume and pushes alot to mix as she ascends in the 5th octave, Hwasa just kinda strains alot up there and is really chesty, and it's obvious that she has the least range up there compared to Wheein and Solar (I don't think I've ever heard her belt above E5), and Wheein has always seemed to perform the best up there and have the most ease up there, she has always seemed to be the most balanced and well-rounded although she is the one out of the 3 of them with the most tendency to be nasal too. I'm not a vocal coach/expert or anything but I do enjoy reading about vocal technique and stuff, and that's kind of what I've gathered from being a fan of theirs for a while.. It's a bummer to hear about Wheein's regression, hopefully she's able to improve.. But really great news about Solar!

Quote from Lulu_Key

Im not the most knowledgeable in vocal techniques, but if they arent doing it comfortably then its not worth it

It took Onew multiple surgeries and 1 year hiatus to recover

He couldnt even talk for 4 months.

Since then he has changed his techniques. Hopefully wont happen again.

People are worried about Key now. Are the notes at the end of bad love too high for him?

I always thought that is within his range but some fans are worried.

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The notes at the end of Bad Love are deeeefinitely wayyy too high for Key considering he's a Baritone lol. I think he maxes out at D5 or something there. It's really high for a tenor too tbh so if it's really high for a tenor, then you can imagine how high it is for a Baritone

Quote from SendFoodPics

yes Onew was very open and I understand why and what he felt. His livelihood could be removed forever. I'd be moved. Actually there was a case like this.

Key uh is like Haechan honestly where he has a habit of straining everywhere so I'd say yes (the notes were extremely high) but more importantly, the less frequently he promotes, the better it'll be for his voice, so as long as he's not singing live 24/7 on every show he'll be fine. It's one solo. He did sing live throughout promotions but again, promotions weren't super long thankfully. He's def the most prone in Shinee now though.

The case I was talking about was CSJH's Dana. She was the lead vocalist of CSJH and is probably the counterpart to Winter for new gg fans. The problem is that she debuted a low Competent or high AA-C, which was amazing as all of CSJH were extremely strong, Lina was a Good vocalist, Stephanie was a strong A-AA, Sunday was an A. However after some time in CSJH, she began having a MASSIVE regression, along with the fact that CSJH flopped, got to her and she developed mental health issues. She knew how bad she had regressed, and she took it to heart in a very unfortunate way.

I know Dana!

I think she recovered since then and she has been in musicals

We need more low note appreciation in K-pop

No they’re not a good vocalist takes care of their vocal and should know their limits although kpop idols don’t really have a choice I assume I’m glad SM are letting groups sing more in their comfortable range :shyy:

Quote from omnimorphism

We need more low note appreciation in K-pop

This is true, i still dont understand why GG labels are so hellbent on making their female idols belt in their highest registers. That chorus in ICSM is the biggest example of this insanity. There is no woman on Earth that can belt those peak notes while doing the full choreo for ICSM. Nayeon is literally screaming to hit those notes ffs.

ICSM wouldve been perfect as a moody mid tempo banger, instead we got a screamfest song going at 1000mph.

People forget that in order to sing live, main vocalists have to sing their part multiple times offstage.

Since they are the best ones of their groups, hitting 5th octave belts over and over is damaging as they can't support these notes. Moreover, straining is also due to the fear of not being able to hit high notes live correctly (for good vocalists), therefore it's easier and more reliable to push.

Quote from SendFoodPics

oo I think honestly the thing that worried me was Taeil's mix regressed after he sang several stages and From Home was where he sounded very stuck in his mix, it's basically because of high notes, he's always had a tendency to regress (because he's inconsistent) and with a chestier approach, again it's not surprising. He sounds much better in Sticker and now so I think he'll regain that hopefully. I think his nervousness there was tied to stage fright but he performed pretty well there. It wasn't peak but it's way better than his stuck G#4s last year.

Doyoung's musical theatre work has improved his technique but Doyoung struggles to bring that improved technique consistently on NCT stages, he'll get there but you're right, he's lacking confidence. Both Taeil and Doyoung are being forced to sing extremely high for NCT, like their parts are ones I really want them to ease upon. Doyoung had A4 down earlier this year. Doyoung was pretty bad with support at debut though, so this is like big, like...little Taeyeon LMAO.

Jaehyun is the next best NCT vocalist and the second NCT vocalist I think is most likely to improve. I feel like he is underutilized in comparison, he has some underdeveloped registers that could be developed pretty easily. I'm just really confused because he's like a hidden gem lmao. He's a good average though, but I haven't listened to his lives closely recently.

Xiaojun actually hasn't improved from predebut, he's a mid average. It's because all his time at SM was spent learning the language but his technique doesn't seem to have improved yet. He's by FAR the strongest vocalist outside of NCT127 and is one of the most stable vocalists in NCT. To me he's actually the NCT member who I feel has the most potential to improve. He's solid/consistent on what he has and can expand on more.

uhh Jungwoo is really confusing, I have no clue how strong his support is because he's pretty inconsistent but I feel good about him being in the weak to average category, of the Big 4, Eb3~Eb4 is really good for him, but he did way better in the NCT recording sessions (the youtube content) than he did in the recorded video and live. Has had some good moments E4~F4, think of like Suho. He's had some better moments than Suho but also some meh moments so if any NCTzen has some more updated info, let me know haha. Think like uh Giselle

NCT's Yuta and Mark have some shallow support. Yuta was my pick for the 3rd NCT vocalist to improve most along with Mark. So they're actually quite decent. Mark was one of NCT Dream's strongest vocalists. Yuta actually is probably around Haechan and Haechan was meant to be a lead/sub in 127 very likely.

Haechan...tries. NCT Dream is the weakest vocal unit out of NCT specifically because none of them were trained well because they were not planning to have NCT Dream remain as a permanent group. Haechan seemed to miss out on some crucial vocal development, is the vocalist I'm most worried about in NCT because he is screaming in a lot of his high notes. He's shallow so he can kinda(???) support but he's nasal imo. Some people do not consider him as someone who supports. Haechan though is very confident (IDK if that's good or bad) but he's not afraid.

Renjun, Kun, Ten, Chenle all are underdeveloped/shallow (Chenle was saying his throat hurt from the high notes in Hot Sauce because he is not technically supporting at all, and is pretty much straining it out). So they're not really engaging in much, they're stable and Renjun and Ten have had some good moments, but yeah. NCT Dream are not far from each other vocally. Renjun seemes to have better lows than Haechan and has had some E4s.

They're actually decent but the 4th gen gap is very apparent in Dream (which are actually a strong 4th gen male group...male vocals have fallen hard and fast)

NCT's biggest problem is that their best vocalists besides Xiaojun are all in NCT 127. I feel like the vocal gap needs to be addressed, especially when Aespa debuted with a very small vocal gap like CSJH. It would make everyone's job easier. There's potential too, I would address Taeil's issues, and rigorously work with Jaehyun because he could vocally improve by a lot, Jungwoo should work on being more consistent and I'd also ease on the NCT Dream song difficulty.

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I thought Kun and Xiaojun sounded better in their Back to You live performances than their earlier WayV work, so that’s it’s insightful to hear.. My preference is for the 127 vocals but it’s because I always prefer a more r&b vocal style, esp Taeil, Doyoung and Jaehyun, so it’s interesting to hear some of those technical insights around Dream and WayV. (I love all the NCT vocals but 127’s are usually my favorite.)

I suspected something like that around Haechan. Those high notes seems to come less easier to him than Taeil or Doyoung. I worry about him straining his vocal chords too much.

Thanks for taking the time to explain! I love learning..

A follow up question: many of these members have talked about continuing to take vocal lessons, but you’re noting that you don’t see improvement in many of them. Do you think they’re focusing on the wrong things then?

Quote from SendFoodPics

Nayeon's lower range seems to be her strongest suit too LMAOOOO :,(

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Ann One is an example of great lows!

Eunji has been developing her lows recently.

OT, what did you think about Adele's new song? I LOVED the song, it's just a tiny step below Drivers License as Song of the Year for the US. But what made the song so special (Adele's hoarseness/raspiness which seemed extra intense here and which obviously adds to the vocal color and emotion) is also what made me worry that her voice was still damaged.

To me, the best voices are ones that have that huskiness and that raspy edge to them (which is why i love my girl Morissette so much). But unfortunately, the same vocal tone seems to also be a sign of potential danger and vocal chords that are being overused.

The following vid is still the best live performance i've ever heard on YT. Mori's tone is PERFECT, the raspiness misdirects you into thinking she can't hit those high notes and then she just blows the doors off with fifth octave belting, especially in the bridge/outro. But the very next year she damaged her voice, to a point where i dont think it's ever been the same since.

Quote from SendFoodPics

It's possible that their vocal lessons aren't focusing on building but rather maintaining technique. The mains for example don't have an easy time handling any of the high notes (no main would except like maybe Chen because since debut he had enough development that it wasn't that bad) so they need to work on retaining what they have, and a lot of these members (Jaehyun) are not focusing on singing for now. Again if DREAM took like a hiatus for a year and worked on vocals I'd expect a big difference but they are not/can't do that.

Kun/Xiaojun have worked on their stamina but I hear no huge vocal development yet.

Remember changing technique changes a lot of your confidence so in fact after developing, some idols seem more unconfident because they wanna revert to their old habits if that makes sense. It's also why it is harder to start from scratch (rather than someone with a strong technical basis who can pick up development/fix mistakes with a better chance of accuracy) and why many groups can say they want to vocally improve for years but do not actually do so because they know they can't risk it along with them not having the desire, because strained or not, you'll be praised if you sound stable and good.

hmm. That’s really insightful. Thanks!