whilst true
all this shows is that for every BB Girls (Brave Girls) there are thousands of nugu groups whose songs didn't go viral and thus they can't pay the bills
whilst true
all this shows is that for every BB Girls (Brave Girls) there are thousands of nugu groups whose songs didn't go viral and thus they can't pay the bills
But all those groups that did go viral (Exid, AOA, Momoland, BB Girls, 50/50) did have a certain quality tho. Not all groups put out the quality or put in the effort. there was a group i think kaachi or so. I think they would never go viral unless as some kind of parody. Or another group that disbanded after one day.
But there are lots of groups that deserved to go viral but didnt. Dalshabet - "someone like you" or bestie "love bomb" for example. This shows that you also need timing and luck if you dont start from an established company.
But all those groups that did go viral (Exid, AOA, Momoland, BB Girls, 50/50) did have a certain quality tho. Not all groups put out the quality or put in the effort. there was a group i think kaachi or so. I think they would never go viral unless as some kind of parody. Or another group that disbanded after one day.
But there are lots of groups that deserved to go viral but didnt. Dalshabet - "someone like you" or bestie "love bomb" for example. This shows that you also need timing and luck if you dont start from an established company.
can you explain that to me - what quality or effort is there?
since to me we aren't privy to all that goes on behind the scenes especially not of every group (whether our favs or otherwise) who is to say that those groups that didn't go viral or just didn't succeed failed to put in the effort or quality?
they could have worked their butts off more so than successful groups and still not see one iota of success.
In terms of your last sentence I would agree completely that often that not companies release songs that they think will succeed and sometimes it will pay off and other times it won't - for a nugu group it is just a matter of luck and timing.
I've said it before but if you come from the big4 (or had prior success) the GP are more likely to give your music a listen (even if they decide they don't like it) but for a nugu group - the GP will even give them a second thought
if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around - does it make a sound?
if a nugu group releases a great song but nobody listens to it - is it still a good song?
Display Morecan you explain that to me - what quality or effort is there?
since to me we aren't privy to all that goes on behind the scenes especially not of every group (whether our favs or otherwise) who is to say that those groups that didn't go viral or just didn't succeed failed to put in the effort or quality?
they could have worked their butts off more so than successful groups and still not see one iota of success.
In terms of your last sentence I would agree completely that often that not companies release songs that they think will succeed and sometimes it will pay off and other times it won't - for a nugu group it is just a matter of luck and timing.
I've said it before but if you come from the big4 (or had prior success) the GP are more likely to give your music a listen (even if they decide they don't like it) but for a nugu group - the GP will even give them a second thought
if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around - does it make a sound?
if a nugu group releases a great song but nobody listens to it - is it still a good song?
about quality. unfortunatly not all groups have great vocalists or outstanding visuals. Kaachi for example. Not all groups have the endurance to get trough several years of hardship until they reach their breakthrough. Solia for example disbanded after 5 days. But in most cases its the company who lacks quality. mostly they simply dont have the funds to deliver everything in high quality. Promotion, mv, hair, makeup, clothes, coordination, song, choreo somewere along the line the smaller company usually have to cut some costs. Or they need to much time and fans dont want to waith 1,5 years for every comeback when the big group can put out a comeback every 3 month. furthermore if a top company failed to hit the top they just double the promo and reach so they still find enough people who like a mediocre song.
you absolutly right there a most likely many groups that worked their butts off more so than successful groups(i have never seen big4 groups do guerilla promo for month in the streets) and still didnt see one iota of success. but that doesnt count for all nugu groups. many are. but not every nugu group is as talented and hard working as the top groups.
even if the top groups are all on the top due to their lineage. it would be ignorant to say they dont have a certain standart of quality.
yes, to a certain degree you can measure the quality of a song unrelated to the amount of people listen to it. but thats a job for the professionals like producer, music critics etc.
about quality. unfortunatly not all groups have great vocalists or outstanding visuals. Kaachi for example. Not all groups have the endurance to get trough several years of hardship until they reach their breakthrough. Solia for example disbanded after 5 days. But in most cases its the company who lacks quality. mostly they simply dont have the funds to deliver everything in high quality. Promotion, mv, hair, makeup, clothes, coordination, song, choreo somewere along the line the smaller company usually have to cut some costs. Or they need to much time and fans dont want to waith 1,5 years for every comeback when the big group can put out a comeback every 3 month. furthermore if a top company failed to hit the top they just double the promo and reach so they still find enough people who like a mediocre song.
you absolutly right there a most likely many groups that worked their butts off more so than successful groups(i have never seen big4 groups do guerilla promo for month in the streets) and still didnt see one iota of success. but that doesnt count for all nugu groups. many are. but not every nugu group is as talented and hard working as the top groups.
even if the top groups are all on the top due to their lineage. it would be ignorant to say they dont have a certain standart of quality.
yes, to a certain degree you can measure the quality of a song unrelated to the amount of people listen to it. but thats a job for the professionals like producer, music critics etc.
understandable
is Kaachi still around??? lol
(1st bolded part) I completely agree with you my friend - whether intentional or otherwise from said small company the question is then does the idol themselves bare any responsibility for ensuring the company has adequate funds -
like should they insist on seeing the books and bank accounts prior to signing a contract and most likely than not the company says no you aren't seeing our numbers - should the idol then have the right to refuse to sign the contract? and if they either sign without seeing said books or having seen the numbers and continue to debut - do the idols themselves bear any responsibility for protecting their own interests
I guess what I'm getting at is do the idols bear any risk for signing with an inherently nugu/small company?
(2nd bold part) absolutely - and the reverse is also true as well that we also don't know how "hard" or how much effort a top group puts as well since there are plenty of top (ie. popular) idols who debuted and are lacking in one or more areas
no. disbanded 2023. they didnt last 3 years.
1. in short. no. the idol is not responsable. the idol as an employee. you dont expect the salesman to check if the production worker does his job and you dont expect the production worker to check if the salesman does his job. i mean the idol can try and ask to see the books but than the company will just pic the next in line to sign the contract. the manager or the ceo are responsable. thats why they have their title.
of course it the idol pulls a newjeans it can be a different issue.
2. yes, true. but we do know a few things. a top group works often harder than a smaller groups simply for the reason that their company ensure a booked shedule. On the other side there are certain works we know the top idols dont do. Street promo, driving 12 hours with a boat for a 6 minute performance for no money or fame, working part time because the group have no shedule or income.
some may be lacking in vocals because that can be covered and also is not the most decisive factor. but they all went to the same doc. the big companies does have quality standarts.
about quality. unfortunatly not all groups have great vocalists or outstanding visuals. Kaachi for example. Not all groups have the endurance to get trough several years of hardship until they reach their breakthrough. Solia for example disbanded after 5 days. But in most cases its the company who lacks quality. mostly they simply dont have the funds to deliver everything in high quality. Promotion, mv, hair, makeup, clothes, coordination, song, choreo somewere along the line the smaller company usually have to cut some costs. Or they need to much time and fans dont want to waith 1,5 years for every comeback when the big group can put out a comeback every 3 month. furthermore if a top company failed to hit the top they just double the promo and reach so they still find enough people who like a mediocre song.
you absolutly right there a most likely many groups that worked their butts off more so than successful groups(i have never seen big4 groups do guerilla promo for month in the streets) and still didnt see one iota of success. but that doesnt count for all nugu groups. many are. but not every nugu group is as talented and hard working as the top groups.
even if the top groups are all on the top due to their lineage. it would be ignorant to say they dont have a certain standart of quality.
yes, to a certain degree you can measure the quality of a song unrelated to the amount of people listen to it. but thats a job for the professionals like producer, music critics etc.
90% of this is related to "investment"
Many agencies simply have no 'funds' to compete in 'quality' - and without that 'quality' of presentation, it is exceedingly rare for 'talents' however greatly talented to achieve success.
Big 4, Kakao, Mnet related groups - have that money to pursue "quality", so much so that even their failed acts/songs sell more than the mini-viral hits of nugu groups.
And even if a nugu company manage to pull off a hit with one group/one song - there is what Steve Jobs called the "Second product syndrome"
- They don't know how & why the first product succeeded
- They don't spend enough time/focus on the second product, that they spent on the 1st, wanting to strike the rod when hot.
- They get over ambitious and rash.
- They can't convert the success into a sustained process and model
- And they end up in legal/interpersonal tangle fighting over the 1st success
So poof.
The last point is very apt for cases like LOONA, FiftyFifty.
So they are not set up for success and if success still strikes, they don't know how to handle/invest it for the next attempt.
Again not just in Kpop, but in all industries. Just more visible in entertainment.
That is why there are so many "one hit wonders"
Display Moreno. disbanded 2023. they didnt last 3 years.
1. in short. no. the idol is not responsable. the idol as an employee. you dont expect the salesman to check if the production worker does his job and you dont expect the production worker to check if the salesman does his job. i mean the idol can try and ask to see the books but than the company will just pic the next in line to sign the contract. the manager or the ceo are responsable. thats why they have their title.
of course it the idol pulls a newjeans it can be a different issue.
2. yes, true. but we do know a few things. a top group works often harder than a smaller groups simply for the reason that their company ensure a booked shedule. On the other side there are certain works we know the top idols dont do. Street promo, driving 12 hours with a boat for a 6 minute performance for no money or fame, working part time because the group have no shedule or income.
some may be lacking in vocals because that can be covered and also is not the most decisive factor. but they all went to the same doc. the big companies does have quality standarts.
hmm...the thing is as a potential employee of a company - does the individual not bear some responsibility for ensuring who they are working for?
even outside of kpop as a normal job - would not one of the things (not seeing the books per se) but undertaking due diligence on where one wants to work?
3. harder as in more schedules harder? that's to do with quantity and not necessarily quality of the "hard work" but in any event I do agree with your overall sentiment
Display More
90% of this is related to "investment"
Many agencies simply have no 'funds' to compete in 'quality' - and without that 'quality' of presentation, it is exceedingly rare for 'talents' however greatly talented to achieve success.
Big 4, Kakao, Mnet related groups - have that money to pursue "quality", so much so that even their failed acts/songs sell more than the mini-viral hits of nugu groups.
And even if a nugu company manage to pull off a hit with one group/one song - there is what Steve Jobs called the "Second product syndrome"
- They don't know how & why the first product succeeded
- They don't spend enough time/focus on the second product, that they spent on the 1st, wanting to strike the rod when hot.
- They get over ambitious and rash.
- They can't convert the success into a sustained process and model
- And they end up in legal/interpersonal tangle fighting over the 1st success
So poof.
The last point is very apt for cases like LOONA, FiftyFifty.
So they are not set up for success and if success still strikes, they don't know how to handle/invest it for the next attempt.
Again not just in Kpop, but in all industries. Just more visible in entertainment.
That is why there are so many "one hit wonders"
I completely agree that the larger companies have more money for investment but also for "failure"
It is also the same sentiment (I'm not sure I'm using the right word) when comparing rich people's failures to poor peoples...
rich people can fail time and time again because the cost of such failure is minimized by the fact that they have money to fall back on whereas the same cannot be said of poor people...
and thus the larger companies can afford to fail and fail again until something succeeds (obviously one still can't fail too much lol)
the ultimate million dollar question is how a company makes the transition from having one hit song ---> the next BTS or whatever
rich people can fail time and time again because the cost of such failure is minimized by the fact that they have money to fall back on whereas the same cannot be said of poor people
Correct.
But the rich didn't get rich over night.
Either they or their ancestors cracked the barrier to get to next level of success, building the buffer where they can risk failure.
The narrative that those advantage should be forcibly negated by laws/policy, is like telling even successful agencies should be burdened with say budget limits to give nugu agencies a even playing field.
If Kpop were to be ruled by Left, then HYBE will be forced to spend exactly the same amount on LSF's next comeback as some nugu company.
How can it use the success of BTS to fund future initiatives.
Would that work?
Display MoreCorrect.
But the rich didn't get rich over night.
Either they or their ancestors cracked the barrier to get to next level of success, building the buffer where they can risk failure.
The narrative that those advantage should be forcibly negated by laws/policy, is like telling even successful agencies should be burdened with say budget limits to give nugu agencies a even playing field.
If Kpop were to be ruled by Left, then HYBE will be forced to spend exactly the same amount on LSF's next comeback as some nugu company.
How can it use the success of BTS to fund future initiatives.
Would that work?
I was googling how much it costs to debut a group and I think JYP said something like 500m won for Twice and recently it can balloon to over $1m from certain article that I cannot link on AKP lol
but yeah debuting groups is expensive and comebacks are expensive as well
and that's not even paying any of the idols a "wage"
Display More
90% of this is related to "investment"
Many agencies simply have no 'funds' to compete in 'quality' - and without that 'quality' of presentation, it is exceedingly rare for 'talents' however greatly talented to achieve success.
Big 4, Kakao, Mnet related groups - have that money to pursue "quality", so much so that even their failed acts/songs sell more than the mini-viral hits of nugu groups.
And even if a nugu company manage to pull off a hit with one group/one song - there is what Steve Jobs called the "Second product syndrome"
- They don't know how & why the first product succeeded
- They don't spend enough time/focus on the second product, that they spent on the 1st, wanting to strike the rod when hot.
- They get over ambitious and rash.
- They can't convert the success into a sustained process and model
- And they end up in legal/interpersonal tangle fighting over the 1st success
So poof.
The last point is very apt for cases like LOONA, FiftyFifty.
So they are not set up for success and if success still strikes, they don't know how to handle/invest it for the next attempt.
Again not just in Kpop, but in all industries. Just more visible in entertainment.
That is why there are so many "one hit wonders"
true. money is most decisive.
since the power difference between the two groups ar so big that a failed song from a big company sell more than a hit from a small company means we have 2 classes of kpop. one group is there for domination and the other one for survival. since i consider myself a left wing socialist. my support will always go to over 90% to the last group.
of course thats just a question of how to measure it. but i think there are way to few "one hit wonders" or successful acts that started small. I think it would be nice to see more movement. and also to not know what will be the next hit. atm you just need to look at the next month releases, check what groups are there and know what songs will be at the top of the charts.
I was googling how much it costs to debut a group and I think JYP said something like 500m won for Twice and recently it can balloon to over $1m from certain article that I cannot link on AKP lol
but yeah debuting groups is expensive and comebacks are expensive as well
and that's not even paying any of the idols a "wage"
do we have numbers about how low smaller groups can go for a debut or a comeback? looking at hybe it seems they are somewhere around $10m for a debut.
true. money is most decisive.
since the power difference between the two groups ar so big that a failed song from a big company sell more than a hit from a small company means we have 2 classes of kpop. one group is there for domination and the other one for survival. since i consider myself a left wing socialist. my support will always go to over 90% to the last group.
of course thats just a question of how to measure it. but i think there are way to few "one hit wonders" or successful acts that started small. I think it would be nice to see more movement. and also to not know what will be the next hit. atm you just need to look at the next month releases, check what groups are there and know what songs will be at the top of the charts.
I consider myself merely as an individual with tastes - I have to "like" the songs - first, that is the primary criteria to support an act or not. They are not beggars to want my support without that "liking", that is just disrespectful.
"Left wing socialism" is that it requires people to act upon abstract causes, without any consideration of their own values, interests and preferences, and that is the reason it always fails after a point.
But I agree about "mobility", irrespective of where they start, people, or acts or companies in any society should have avenues to move ahead and that should not be blocked, by monopolizing the platforms.
And yes, Free Market Capitalism fails to deal with that human tendency, where once success is achieved, the successful try to monopolize the field and prevent competition.
That is seen in Kpop where Big4 groups try to monopolize screen/stage time in Music shows and Award Shows.
Display MoreI consider myself merely as an individual with tastes - I have to "like" the songs - first, that is the primary criteria to support an act or not. They are not beggars to want my support without that "liking", that is just disrespectful.
"Left wing socialism" is that it requires people to act upon abstract causes, without any consideration of their own values, interests and preferences, and that is the reason it always fails after a point.
But I agree about "mobility", irrespective of where they start, people, or acts or companies in any society should have avenues to move ahead and that should not be blocked, by monopolizing the platforms.
And yes, Free Market Capitalism fails to deal with that human tendency, where once success is achieved, the successful try to monopolize the field and prevent competition.
That is seen in Kpop where Big4 groups try to monopolize screen/stage time in Music shows and Award Shows.
I agree. At first Kpop is for entertainment so it needs to be fun and make you happy. of course i only listen to songs i like. and its not like i dont listen to top groups. i just make sure 9 out of 10 songs on my playlist are smaller artists. Since there are so many good songs thats very easy. I also listen a lot to older songs and they include trot and OSTs too.
And to even out the unbalanced reach and promotion im more likely to checkout a nugu release if i get to know about it. while i usually wait to check out a new song from a top group. only if it still makes noise after a month its worth to give it a try.
im surely no radical left wing activist but its not much effort to act a liddle bit responsible and with awarneess to my suroundings.
that was touching
I don't think the smaller group companies would release such numbers
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