Posts by Beesknees

Quote from Yama-Chan

I'm just dropping facts and knowledge, which are always left outside the room when people talk BLACKPINK.

BLACKPINK had an impact on the industry, but it was like maybe a pebble being tossed into a lake compared to a giant bolder dislodging and falling into that same lake with a big splash, once SNSD enters the conversation.

Only Blinks would argue otherwise, as this thread has shown.

You all are incapable of not letting blind tribalism fuel your viewpoints.

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So you are being deliberately obtuse.

Quote from Yama-Chan

BLACKPINK had nothing to do with K-Pop acts going to festivals.

I should know.

I saw K-Pop acts at festivals before BLACKPINK ever attended one. Yes, it was a natural progression. If BP never existed, we would've seen groups attending bigger and bigger festivals.

Are you being deliberately obtuse at this point

I also saw kpop idols on variety before SNSD. I saw girl group concepts.

Natural progression if it’s BP but innovative/popularising if it’s SNSD

Quote from Yama-Chan

I've stuck to my guns the entire time. You're the one who is being blissfully and willfully blind when it comes to the obvious overlap and parallels between Twice and SNSD. And in your efforts to undermine the accomplishments of SNSD, you've basically only succeeded in that mission as it relates to BLACKPINK.

Since they're even less original, as they're just a remixed version of 2NE1, if that's what you want to make this conversation all about.

And in terms of opening doors in the West, that was 95% BTS. I'd argue BP contributed very little to that, and they just capitalized on the success for themselves; they didn't do anything for other girl groups in that regard.

Citing music festivals is just foolish, because HYBE acts would've been going to those ANYWAY. People can't actually believe otherwise.

YOU keep jumping from one doomed argument to the next. I'M focused on the topic at hand.

SNSD is the most impactful girl group in K-Pop history, and you and all the other petulant Blinks have given NOTHING to counter that.

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Hybe acts would have done it anyways.

But kpop would not have fancams if it wasn’t for SNSD right? You wouldn’t have girl groups on variety even though idols were hugely successful on them before SNSD? You wouldn’t have girl group concepts? Girl groups wouldn’t have photo cards either right? You wouldn’t have the kpop training system that SM came up with in the first gen? Funny how that works.

None of these are things anyone would have thought of before SNSD for girl groups. But festivals? Obviously a natural progression.

BP are not original. They take parts from prior successful YG groups.

Quote from Yama-Chan

This is such a cop out coping method of discrediting SNSD.

It's giving desperate vibes.

Almost 600 messages and Blinks haven't given one argument not predicated on shitting on SNSD or people who correctly give them their flowers as the most impactful girl group in K-Pop history.

Go on. Do it. Do it without using numbers.

I'm waiting. I've BEEN waiting

Stop trying to argue with me about what SNSD didn't do, and show me what BP did do

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I’ve made my intentions in the thread very clear. I can see the other user that was proclaiming SNSD as the most impactful GG in Japan has already disappeared as well.

Way too many bad takes in this thread for it to go unchecked.

In our last few back and forths you haven’t been able to stick to any of your arguments when challenged, and keep jumping to another one. Have you noticed that?

But yes, keep thinking I’m some mad blink if that makes you feel superior in some way. I know that’s something you get off on

Quote from Yama-Chan

Every girl group has SNSD on their vision board and as their template, INCLUDING YG.

I have posted comments confirming how YG obsessed over SNSD for YEARS and actively tried to make his own SNSD (HIS WORDS), and Blinks still want to quibble with me over their impact on their peers and the generations that came after.

There is not a single group in K-Pop completely original. They're all reheating concepts borrowed heavily from black music and culture at the end of the day, with an infusion of J-Pop, but we're not discussing originality. We're discussing IMPACT.

You Blinks keep trying to muddy tbe waters and derail the conversation because you know BLACKPINK are getting clocked in this debate.

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So you’ve already gone from the absurd opinion that the kpop recruitment and training process of girl groups is down to SNSD to another point already.

Labels have the most successful groups on their drawing board as inspiration? Colour me shocked.

YG went with a 2NE1 replica instead of SNSD and ended up with a more successful girl group. Worked well I guess.

Quote from Yama-Chan

The SNSD blueprint is a large part of all successful girl groups that followed them. No, they don't get a cut of the royalties or a deposit in their bank account every time a new group accomplishes milestones for their own careers, but SNSD expanded and established new ground for the space girl groups could occupy within K-Pop.

From the recruitment process, to the training process, to the concepts, to the production formula, to the fandom growth facilitation, and so many other aspects of what all modern girl groups do today, SNSD's impact is all over it.

SNSD did more for K-Pop, from an impact perspective, than BLACKPINK ever has. And that is the purpose of this thread: to remind everyone of that.

Again, I look at it this way.

If you wiped SNSD from existence, we would have no idea what the K-Pop story would look like in that timeline. Their impact on the industry was that widespread.

If you did the same with BLACKPINK, I really don't think much changes at all.

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Comments like this are the only reason I responded in the first place. I think you even surely know you’re conflating innovations SM bought to kpop during the 1st gen here with SNSD specific points. Recruitment? Training?

If you want to talk about things naturally progressing and iterating as time goes on, SM using something that worked so well with their BG’s on their GG is one of the most obvious examples. Everyone knows SM pioneered the training and recruitment process in gen 1 and was heavily influenced by Jpop.

Quote from Yama-Chan

Yeah that's a terrible argument. I don't care what happened to TVXQ. Life is about making the most of the opportunities you are given, and SNSD used theirs to become the most iconic girl group in the industry.

Using your logic, you could've tried to use the Wonder Girls to discredit them too, since SNSD rose to the top after JYP sent the Wonder Girls to the U.S. to chase success there, but again, I'm not going to penalize them for capitalizing on an opportunity and maximizing it.

You have already admitted you're not here to discuss the thread but just to attack SNSD under the guise of correction.

We both know you're a Blink so I don't know why you're lying about that, but whatever.

The title of this thread holds true.

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It’s really not. The fact that EXO were seen as reviving the physicals market not so soon after says it all. The removal of TVXQ left a significant gap in the physicals market until EXO pulled through.

Think what you want my guy. I look forward to your reply about how SNSD’s blueprint is a large part of Twice and their success.

Quote from Yama-Chan

You really are dying on the hill that there are no similarities between Twice and SNSD? Building a counter argument structured around obfuscating the obvious parallels and similarities between the two groups, with a hyper fixation on differences that would obviously occur due to their careers growing in two different generations, is not a great argument.

You've done nothing to even prove BLACKPINK has a case here. The comparison of Blinks to LeBron fans is apt. Because LeBron fans KNOW his resume and impact pale in comparison to Jordan's, they devote their entire lives to discrediting Jordan's achievements by downgrading his era instead of talking about what LeBron has done.

It's the same thing with you Blinks. You think I don't see how you've made zero convincing arguments in favor of BLACKPINK, and that I'm going to indulge your obsession with claiming SNSD and Twice aren't practically mirror images of each other in several ways?

"Well the only reason SNSD had more impact is..." is specious conjecture and a hypothetical. You don't know that for a fact at all. There is nothing objective or empirical you can cite to prove the claim SNSD wouldn't have ascended regardless of what happened with TVXQ.

It's giving "BLACKPINK would've been the one top if not for BTS!!!"

Aren't you all tired of the excuse making and one dimensional arguments?

There is an EASY argument none of you have made for BLACKPINK, and I'm fully convinced it's not going to be made because you're incapable of thinking in anything but charts and tour numbers.

Lastly, because I'm still going to address your comments in full, please read every word I type and make sure you have full comprehension before quoting me.

It's not about SNSD being the first at EVERYTHING. FinKL and S.E.S. exist. But they were the pioneers of many conventional practices for girl groups today and they popularized it, while leading the Hallyu Wave.

If you think BP has had more impact in the West than the god damn HALLYU WAVE then you're kidding yourself. BTS can perhaps make that argument (though they tremendously benefitted from it as well), but not BP.

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I’ve barely made mention of Blackpink in my points because I don’t really care about people’s thoughts on them. As much as you keep labelling a Blackpink fan I’m not. It’s the absurd points made in relation to SNSD that is making me post.

It’s not about whether they ascend or not with no TVXQ. It’s about them selling as much as the biggest boy group which is a commonly used argument. TVXQ, the group with the biggest fandom and sales in kpop at the time, was essentially removed from the equation just after they released their biggest song. People would not have cared as much about the fight between SNSD and SuJu fans back then if it wasn’t for the number one spot being vacated. The argument that SNSD sell as much as the biggest boy group is only a thing because of an incredibly anomalous event.

I also haven’t mentioned how much SM picked up and ran with from Jpop

Quote from Yama-Chan

Oh be for real for a moment.

Of COURSE the promotional tactics and marketing strategies somewhat evolved with the era. Social media and especially YouTube were much bigger platforms and integral to promoting K-Pop during the rise of Twice than it was during the rise of SNSD, but at their core, Twice is just a modern day SNSD. The model is the same.

And what do you mean?! Literally ALL girl groups follow behind the footsteps of SNSD.

What on EARTH are you talking about?

Please go read the Chatgpt breakdown of SNSD's impact again. The industry has evolved since second generation, but everything you see and experience is an interative development based on the framework established by SNSD.

Fancams, building a loyal fandom to rival boy groups, generating frenzied interest in collecting multiple albums versions and photo cards, producing or participating in group variety content--this was all standardized, normalized and popularized by SNSD.

In fact, they ARE the standard. And no amount of BP success metrics will change that.

Not to mention the cultural impact of SNSD as a whole in Korea dwarfs BLACKPINK. And I don't think BP has had ANY cultural impact outside of Korea. The U.S. doesn't love them like that.

This is why it's foolish to base ALL your arguments on glazing the U.S.

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Pray tell, how is the model the same? Look at the critical success factors for SNSD versus Twice and tell me how similar they are.

You’d think no one in South Korea ever liked or listened to girl groups before SNSD. Never bought albums. Never saw them on variety.

SNSD might have one of the first fancams but they were popularised by Hani. Even with video content more broadly Wonder Girls with Tell Me had a bigger impact.

Add some context behind building a loyal fandom because on its own it means nothing. There are so many girl groups after SNSD that had no success building a fandom despite having a blueprint. SM couldn’t even do it well for some of their own gg’s despite having that supposed blueprint. The only reason SNSD were even competing with the top boy group of that era is because TVXQ essentially died a death after Mirotic was released with the court case. So the 2nd gen lost their biggest boy group fandom.

Photo cards is already something SM were doing with their BGs. Same with variety. Half of your argument essentially hinges on something SM were already doing and as the biggest label at the time with the biggest connections they could also do it with their girl group.

For someone that seems to reiterate doing it first for girl groups isn’t what’s most important it’s funny how most of your arguments tend to hinge on that.

Quote from Yama-Chan

I never argued otherwise fam

....What? Or course there is a Twice conundrum and it's two fold. But before I get into that, this is an extremely disingenuous retort. Why are you fixating on the minute differences between SNSD and Twice, when the latter is clearly inspired by the former and was conceptualized for the obvious purpose of being JYP's SNSD. The genetic code of SNSD can be found all over Twice 's DNA.

That doesn't mean they copied and pasted every single aspect of SNSD from song production to concept, but do we really think Twice would even exist in its current state at all without SNSD becoming the top girl group in K-Pop history and the benchmark against which all girl groups are measured?

The other aspect of the Twice conundrum is what I discussed earlier.

How can you argue BLACKPINK is more impactful using their numbers and success metrics and not ALSO then argue Twice is more impactful, since the literal same arguments apply to Twice.

They had all the girl group records before BLACKPINK and still hold many of them. They're doing world tours and selling out STADIUMS. They have Billboard Hot 100 entries and a #1 album on Billboard 200, something only BLACKPINK and NewJeans have done.

If Blinks want to die on the hill of success = impact, then you must also think Twice is more impactful than SNSD.

BUT you all have avoided this conversation about half a dozen times now, because you know no sane person would argue that and it completely compromises the validity of your position in this debate.

So let me reiterate.

BLACKPINK doing big numbers is an argument for most successful or currently most popular NOT the smoking gun mic drop trump card you need it to be in order to prove they're more impactful than SNSD.

10 years from now, people will laugh at this ever being a debate.

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So outside of the number of members, what similarity is there between the two? What is the blueprint that JYPE followed? Twice are an anomaly on their own due to various factors, from JYPE’s positioning when they had their debut to the western market opening just as they had lost any momentum in South Korea. Outside of 9 members, what would be different?

The most successful current girl groups do not closely follow the Twice or SNSD footprint.

Quote from SooYoung

meanwhile a true japanese disagree with you

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no lasting impact in japan yet in 2024 they were still rank #2 on a poll about the most popular Kpop GG in japan

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and let me remind you that most of these polls etc... were made in 2020-2024

and SNSD didn't tour or release a japanese single or album since 2015

i would say pretty good for a girlgroup who didn't left a long lasting impact in japan

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Anecdotal evidence and charts that show Kepler as the most popular girl group. Right.

If they had opened the market up as you’re claiming, Twice just a few years later wouldn’t have had to reinvigorate it. That’s what I’m referring to when I say impact, not SNSD/Kara success in isolation

Quote from Yama-Chan

I don't even know what I planned on responding to any more, but I'll just say this

It's very weird energy to claim SNSD wouldn't be massively popular today, when the literal modern day equivalent, Twice, is thriving with their world tours.

Why have Blinks ignored the Twice conundrum every time I've mentioned them? Because you can't make the arguments you've made for BLACKPINK and not ALSO then conclude Twice is a more impactful group than SNSD.

Want to make that argument? I wouldn't.

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There is no Twice conundrum.

The main similarity between Twice and SNSD is nine members, and even then, there were plenty of large groups that failed before them. Twice reinvigorated the Japanese market because SNSD/Kara did not have a longer term impact on the market for girl groups. Twice sustained their success there with Japanese members which is again not a SNSD facet. Twice had success of the back of cute music which was bought back to the fore by Apink/Gfriend and again, its success is not something SNSD pioneered. Twice had nearly the opposite promo strategy when it came to promoting members and solo endeavours versus SNSD and that is again one of their main success factors as it allowed them to pump out lots of content in a short amount of time.

The thing with Twice is nothing in terms of their identity other than Japanese members is common in successful subsequent girl groups. Large girl groups have largely been dead for years. Cute music has not been in for years. Every company now rushes to bring their idols brand deals and promote more individuality, the opposite to Twice. Groups are rarely looking to pump out 3/4 minis every year.

There are some horrendous takes in this thread

Quote from Yama-Chan

I'm watching The Double myself. Excellent start so far.

Based on the fact you're a Blink, I can guess your answer without back reading.

Nobody is downplaying BP. What they did for K-Pop isn't as impactful as SNSD though.

They didn't really revolutionize anything that couldn't say BTS actually revolutionized on a much grander scale.

Honestly, I can think of at least one powerful and compelling argument Blinks COULD make, but I'm not benevolent enough to give the assist.

It's low hanging fruit too, and I would be forced to acknowledge it. But we're 350+ posts in and it hasn't been brought up so whatever.

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You didn’t guess correctly

Quote from David33

Yes, BTS did it multiple times I think, but not BP! They only did it once!

But what I said is still true. Their streaming numbers are big because of their mass streaming farms and fandoms.

You mistake the impact of Yama and mine with BP, and it's just 9 pages, your setting is weird. 🤣

The In Your Area tour was the biggest kpop gg tour until Born Pink and that was also global

Quote from Yama-Chan

This thread is the impact of SNSD not BP

Soooo...you going to respond to the premise of the thread or get pulled into that side bar conversation with David?

I’ve already responded

Quote from Yama-Chan

What is your actual argument?

Are you trying to make a case for BP being a more impactful group because they can...tour?

Does that make TXT or Stray Kids more impactful than Super Junior?

I’m saying it’s ridiculous to downplay BTS and BP’s streams as if they don’t @@@7d47b26c-4113-492b-b1a4-bd8ac08e13e7@@@ with huge tours. The engagement they have driven towards kpop has been huge over the years.

Quote from David33

Maybe you can't speak English, because that's not what I said!

I said, STREAMING was not a big deal back then!

BP has no REAL impact. You're talking about STREAMING, that's not an impact! We already told this to you all, BTS did everything before Blackpink, they're just riding the wave of BTS' popularity, basically! That's the harsh truth!

Also, everyone knows that both BTS and Blackpink has mass streamer farms. It's an open secret for years!

I don't really care, but stop acting like streaming numbers means anything when we're talking about IMPACT!

Impact means, if one person done something, others can grow because of that too. Did other Kpop groups have 1B streams as well, or just BP and BTS? So, where's the impact exactly?

I really don't want to offend anyone but, we all know that ARMY and BLINKS' real job is streaming songs! They don't listen to their songs because they love it, they do it, because they want better stats and want to fight about it with every other fandoms.

This is the IMPACT and LEGACY of these 2 groups, btw! 2nd gen fandoms were never obsessed about digital stats like you Gen Z's.

These 2 fandoms literally fighting about who donated more money because of the wildfire in Korea. This is their impact!

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Streaming means less if you can’t back it up with huge tours, but BTS and BP both do.

You don’t think the eyes they brings on kpop helps other groups? The engagement they drive is huge. Reactions for example, which is now a pretty big thing with people with millions of subscribers, nearly always starts with BTS or BP when it comes to kpop because it drives views. That then pulls them into the genre more generally.

Thread is too big to read but why is BP’s international impact being diminished because BTS did it first/more, when BG’s in the 2nd gen also drove elements that people are trying to attach to SNSD?

SM were huge in Japan before SNSD. Their success did not materially elevate girl groups in Japan and Kara were just as popular. From SNSD/Kara, it took years for another girl group to do anywhere near as well in Japan.

I’m also not sure how SNSD having the best selling album in a year is indicative of longer term impact when it again didn’t lead to material growth for other gg’s. They also did not have to go against a BTS or EXO, who released every year. Late 2000s TVXQ is the only comparative in terms of the anomaly that BTS/EXO were but they were never the same after the court case and split. So the 2nd gen lost their biggest fandom and boy group just as they were peaking.

Considering the state of the charts and release day I was expecting a much stronger start for Ive