it's not just kpop. take a look at football fans for example. all fandoms are toxic.
Because (Kpop) fandoms = Flexing culture
it's not just kpop. take a look at football fans for example. all fandoms are toxic.
kpop is kids's play comparing to sports. There people get really nasty.
Because the very format creates a sense of a relationship w said idol, which makes people way to personally invested
kpop is kids's play comparing to sports. There people get really nasty.
This is true tho!
I lived in UK and them football fans are quite “passionate”
*cough Millwall cough cough
Edit: aaaaaand when SF giants won the World Cup some people in SF legit went out and shot in the air with real guns!
This is true tho!
I lived in UK and them football fans are quite “passionate”
*cough Millwall cough cough
Edit: aaaaaand when SF giants won the World Cup some people in SF legit went out and shot in the air with real guns!
liVARpool fan here. 
Lmao, I always cringe at LFC X MUFC fanwars
Tribal culture
Gamers for instance are toxic, but their main entertainment is games. Hence even if they spend all the day harassing and attacking people online, in the end of the day their hobby is play video games and they will put their entertainment on first place
Kpop fans however likes the sense of community and micro universe that comes as side effect of stanning. They like to see their faves winning and that's all that matters . For you all other groups can burn and have their effort crushed if your group is winning then you are happy
It's the same for sports fans. If you like the sport itself and the competition then you most likely fan of the athlets playing/competing to prove which one is the best. You are a fan of the competition and the sport itself and don't mind as much to see your favorites losing
However if you have a team, then your main concern is to see YOUR team winning. No matter what resources it takes, winning is what matters because your loyalty is more important than you enjoyment.
As kpop fans are mostly female teenagers that isn't much harm they can do unlike sport fans, but knowing how korean fans used to attack (physically) each other on award shows and music shows then you see that truth in my words
Two Words - Collective Identity
Collective identity - Wikipedia
The sense of belonging with a group - that the fact of belonging with a group shapes one's identity and an individuals identity is defined within the collective group thus any outsiders infringing upon the group is seen to attack one's own identity.
liVARpool fan here.
I think most ordinary fans do lol
Used live near Emirates stadium for a while, mayhem! But mostly good fun
That's also true, but just collective identity doesn't necessary means toxic and delusional fans. But has other 'dangerous traps'.
I think its the CI coupled with the animinity of the internet that creates an even more toxic environment - someone mentioned sports which has a similar effect.
But in sports especially when you are watching in person or at a pub/club or bar the physical and social norms dictate that you don't just go off swearing at someone but online has no such barriers.
Furthermore I think i've mentioned this elsewhere as well - there is no finality to kpop there's no conclusion - ie. ie you watch a sports match - it ends there is a winner and a loser - in kpop its purely subjective and no conclusion when in fact its usually the semantics which are more important (ie. the underlying presuppositions and implications behind the primary arguments) There's no winner - coupled with the CI someone is coming at my group they are coming after me therefore its an attack on me not just my fav group causes fanwars
A lot of times it isn't even a rational argument - they can't even define the confines of what they are arguing about - ie what's most important should be the semantics instead of the primary argument.
Think op is right. Kpop and idol culture encourages fans to think that they truly know their idols. It encourages fans to spend more money and dedicate all of their time to them. This more intimate and personal approach compared to western celebrities whom have more of an untouchable vibe make fans very possessive and overprotective. (Feel like this is even extremer in Jpop.) That combined with the heavy competition and comparison within Kpop + the young age of most Kpop fans creates a very toxic community.
It's connection of different components that make toxic or delusional fan. CI gives them sense of stability and identity, that they don't find in their personal life, but through artists achievements they feel validated and powerful.
I can not agree more with your last paragraph about rational arguments... The way issues are usually disscused makes no sense. There is no reading comprehension and statements used to discuss topics are hardly argumented with any logic.
I don't know enough about your background but you seem like a knowledgeable kind of person.
We don't even need to use Hypothesis Premises Conclusion type arguments but rather just more defining what the argument is...I think that will help a lot
For example there's a thread someone about 2nd gen v 4th gen and most of the time they aren't even arguing about that topic they are arguing over what they interpret to be the argument and that's why i believe that the semantics are more important because it creates the underlying factors that govern how to argue/debate - the methodology if you will lol
Wow aren't we getting deep into argument constructs here
As others have said all stan cultures can be toxic, but I think a particular issue with kpop is it seems to take the worst of western music stan culture and the worst of Korean idol stan culture and marry them into a messy-ass alliance of competition and rage.
Western culture is all about drags, owning, flexing, memes, and slamming the music and talent of the competition. It's a pitched battle half the time and brutal abt perceived quality and authenticity. It can get real mean.
Korean idol culture is about intense parasocial relationships, ownership of the idols and a sense that 'this is their job, and if that includes putting up with stalkers, haters, and no love life, that's what it is', obsession with hierarchy and who's on top, comfort with entitlement bc of company (more hierarchy) and visuals/'impact' above music. Maintaining illusions is not a bad thing.
Mix those two together like kpop does - I think this is partially bc of ARMY, as the bulk are originally music GP and BTS is the biggest gateway into the scene - and you get an unholy mix of brutal online war western style and it's constant quality drags with the very constructed, surface-illusion obsessed style of kpop fandoms and it's just a dumpster fire at times.
Hehe, that's nice to hear, i am curious person, like to read and think a lot about different topics (scientific, cultural or random) - but English is not my first language, not really even second, so i'm awkward at explaining my thoughts a lot of time.
Of course, the argumentation doesn't have to be scientific lol, it's all supposed to be fun, but to just trying to understand the issue and have a two-way conversation about it, is a lot in kpop.
I've seen the thread you're talking about, i just rather avoid those kind of threads, because i know the debate will run completely away from the direction of the 'underlying issue'.
Hey I too enjoy these discussions as well - yeah it would be great to see people talk more about those underlying issues and truly get to know each other's perspectives but like you said its kpop lol
Anyways tell me more about your background like age education level because you seem to be one of logical ones here :)
Display MoreAs others have said all stan cultures can be toxic, but I think a particular issue with kpop is it seems to take the worst of western music stan culture and the worst of Korean idol stan culture and marry them into a messy-ass alliance of competition and rage.
Western culture is all about drags, owning, flexing, memes, and slamming the music and talent of the competition. It's a pitched battle half the time and brutal abt perceived quality and authenticity. It can get real mean.
Korean idol culture is about intense parasocial relationships, ownership of the idols and a sense that 'this is their job, and if that includes putting up with stalkers, haters, and no love life, that's what it is', obsession with hierarchy and who's on top, comfort with entitlement bc of company (more hierarchy) and visuals/'impact' above music. Maintaining illusions is not a bad thing.
Mix those two together like kpop does - I think this is partially bc of ARMY, as the bulk are originally music GP and BTS is the biggest gateway into the scene - and you get an unholy mix of brutal online war western style and it's constant quality drags with the very constructed, surface-illusion obsessed style of kpop fandoms and it's just a dumpster fire at times.
I don't think its just limited to armies but also every group's fans do this as well.
I would also add probably the age of the fans as well the older one gets the more hopefully intelligent we become the less of the parasocial relationship - the collective identity which i mentioned earlier because we have had relationships we don't see the idols as ours anymore once we get older and have real life experiences we don't need to live through the idols. That as we get older can enjoy more of the music side instead of the idols side (hope that makes sense)
And also as we get older we learn to stop using terms like delusional and whatever and can begin to form actual arguments that have proper structure and some acknowledgement of the others POV - a simple yes I see where you are coming from can diffuse a heated argument so fast.
not just kpop look at Western music Katy Perry vs Taylor Swift. Nicki vs Cardi Beyonce fans vs Rihanna fans male rappers stans beef hell even English GGs have beef Spice Girls vs All Saints fans and old school kpop fan wars Finkl vs SES. Stan culture is toxic no matter the genre or country or form of entertainment. Marvel vs DC fans Superman vs Goku fans
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