[Theory] Within a company - a GG cannot truly establish itself and lead to ultimate glory (ie reaching the next level) if a prior group still exists at the company

    Recently yama had this thread


    Thread
    What do you think is holding BABYMONSTER back the most from reaching their true potential?
    Just throwing the question out there. Note that I'm not calling them flops, but the standard for YG girl group success has been set absurdly high first by 2NE1 and then by BLACKPINK.

    What do you think is the largest contributing factor to why BABYMONSTER hasn't managed to even come remotely close to the overall dominance of either of those groups?

    With the indefinite hiatus of the top girl group in the industry, at least in Korea, there is a giant void that is ready to be filled, but for whatever…
    Yama-Chan


    and babymon-gals had this thread


    Thread
    Will JYP finally debut Twice’s successors with their next gg?
    Just as the question asks, do you think JYP’s next korean gg will go the Twice route (aka larger size gg with foreign members and bubblegum pop music) or will they rehash the itzy/nmixx formula and create another small gg with girl crush influence?

    And before anyone mentions niziu, i’m speaking for the korean ggs under the company.
    babymon-gals


    Both the threads got me thinking that:


    when BP was around during their heyday - 2ne1 were already on hiatus/disbanded/not in the picture

    when Twice was around during their heyday - miss A were on hiatus/disbanded/not in the picture

    when red velvet was around and during their heyday - both snsd and f(x) were winding down? close to winding down?


    can the same be said of IVE and WSJN? or Gidle and CLC? etc etc


    it would seem if the previous group(s) are/were still very active - it prevents the rise of the following group? maybe???? (I'm not thinking of intra company groups like for example Illit and LSFM and NJZ who are all under Hybe, nor groups under subsidiary companies like TBL and YGE)


    Is there a correlation/causation between the fact that a new groups cannot truly establish itself or reach it's full potential if there exists an existing active group within the same company


    DISCUSS!!!

    I figured, but for example, Wonder Girls was as active as they ever were (which ultimately is not much) when Twice broke out with Cheer Up.

    CLC really had no bearing on I-dle one way or the other. Maybe I'm wrong because I haven't looked it up, but I wouldn't be surprised if I-dle were almost immediately more successful, and they were certainly more successful by the time CLC called it quits.

    With Red Velvet, Red Flavor was a gigantic hit and SNSD released Holiday that same year.


    What is your hypothesis - is it that, if a girlgroup becomes less active, their fans migrate to the younger group in the same company? Is it that a company's girlgroups tend to cannibalise each other's fanbases? I dunno, like, speaking from someone who primarily follows JYPE groups, it seems they take a lot of care to create completely differentiated groups such that fans of one wouldn't necessarily be fans of the other. Which is what allows them to have three Korean ones running simultaneously.


    Edit: And obviously, f(x) and Miss A absolutely did establish themselves during the dominating reign of their predecessors.

    I would maybe argue wonder girls were in their downturn during twice's upturn (if that makes sense?) - obviously I wasn't around during that period so I can't say one way or another...


    Was holiday the final release of SNSD prior to their 15th year comeback? Forever One? if so I might argue that SNSD was in their downturn...


    I think that's what I'm saying...maybe??? lol

    I do agree that twice is very different to itzy and both are different to nmixx

    maybe hte question should be whether in the absence of a prior GG will allow a newer GG to flourish even more since the question isn't just about success per se since Itzy and Nmixx are all pretty successful groups by most measurements...

    The question I guess is would they be even more successful if twice wasn't around (ie. reaching new heights/ultimate glory as per my title)

    In SM, fans of previous ggs are often antis of the next one, so there will be no conflict of fandom resource. Both groups can peak at the same time with different set of stans.

    Quote from jeyikal307

    CLC really had no bearing on I-dle one way or the other. Maybe I'm wrong because I haven't looked it up, but I wouldn't be surprised if I-dle were almost immediately more successful, and they were certainly more successful by the time CLC called it quits.

    Exactly this


    CLC made had a solid discography but they were never able to connect with listeners. I think CLC was an interesting case because they wee the group that kpop fans would hype up but never showed up for releases. Hate to bring them up because I'm also a fan of them but there's some parallels with CLC and Purple Kiss. Both groups are talented and constantly changed concepts, which didn't allow the group to properly grow and establish a fanbase. The sad part about both groups kpop fans will always use them for ammo to put down other groups but didn't show up for them when it mattered.


    I think with CLC they just were never able to carry on momentum and I think should've pivoted towards finding an international audience. Sales weren't great and ultimately I think pandemic made Cube pull the plug because business-wise it didn't make sense to continue if they're unable to perform or waste resources on marketing outside of Korea.


    With Idle they started out hot and in their first month they outsold any CLC release. So, it made perfect sense why Cube would focus on Idle because they were the successful group and CLC not so much. It's a shame because CLC had some very talented members but were never able to establish a fanbase


    Ultimately, I think there's room for a company to promote 2+ groups at the same time. I think Red Velvet and Aespa is a perfect example where Red Velvet was still performing well and Aespa established themselves as a top 5 4th gen group. I think the key is concepts have to be different where one group doesn't take away from the other.

    I’m not sure there’s a direct correlation between sister groups, or successor groups from the same company, but I do think gen 5 has a very real problem that gen 3 and 4 are a lot more active now than gen 1 and gen 2 were when the torch was passed to later gens.

    Quote from selfmate

    when red velvet was around and during their heyday - both snsd and f(x) were winding down? close to winding down?

    Not really. SNSD stuck around for the first three years of RV's existence, albeit having already shot themselves in the foot shortly after the latter's debut. They were still popular compared to most, if not by their own previous standards, so it's not like RV had a clear path. SNSD weren't really winding down, they just made a mass exodus from SM suddenly.


    RV were in turn active for the first four years of Aespa's career, although SM never let them match their previous levels of activity prior to Wendy's injury and Irene's hiatus.


    Most groups in other companies didn't even last long enough to coexist with their juniors, with Twice obviously being the biggest exception. It's usually out with the old and then in with the new. There may be something to the idea of a group having better odds if there's no intercompany competition, but I don't think it's actually necessary for one group to replace another. If a newer group flounders, it's very unlikely that them having still-active seniors has anything to do with it.

    Even though it’s not the only reason, I agree with what you said. It’s not just the 3rd generation the 4th generation is also still strong and active as well. And especially when we think about the international scene, kpop listeners already represent a rather limited audience, which, as I said, isn’t the main reason but still hinders the growth of the 5th generation.

    Quote from selfmate

    I wasn't referring to their debut year

    I was referring to the fact that a group cannot truly hit it big/reach new heights/reach it's full potential whilst a prior GG is in actively in existence...

    CLC did not stop G-IDLE.


    As a matter of faact, G-IDLE won a music show award before CLC.


    Lets talk about Cube.


    4Minute, was successful, CLC never got out of their shadow.

    CLC was not successful, G-Idle was able to succeed.

    G-Idle is successful, LightSum has not been able to get out of Idle shadow.



    Maybe change your theory to successful prior group.


    Same could apply to WJSN and IVE, WJSN was never successful enough to block a new group.

    maybe that's my point the successful group blocks their juniors and if they are still around the junior cannot flourish

    CLC never got popular and I say that with all due respect to the group and thus they weren't in a position to block Gidle

    maybe the prerequisite is that one needs to be successful in your own right and thus block (albeit inadvertently) one's juniors

    Quote from Popper-of-Ks

    Not really. SNSD stuck around for the first three years of RV's existence, albeit having already shot themselves in the foot shortly after the latter's debut. They were still popular compared to most, if not by their own previous standards, so it's not like RV had a clear path. SNSD weren't really winding down, they just made a mass exodus from SM suddenly.


    RV were in turn active for the first four years of Aespa's career, although SM never let them match their previous levels of activity prior to Wendy's injury and Irene's hiatus.


    Most groups in other companies didn't even last long enough to coexist with their juniors, with Twice obviously being the biggest exception. It's usually out with the old and then in with the new. There may be something to the idea of a group having better odds if there's no intercompany competition, but I don't think it's actually necessary for one group to replace another. If a newer group flounders, it's very unlikely that them having still-active seniors has anything to do with it.

    would you say that during RV heyday ("peak" so to speak not debut) that both snsd and fx were winding down? I wouldn't even begin to know when their peak or heyday was but maybe Red Flavour? again I wasn't around during that time so I couldn't really say either way


    maybe the bolded part should've been my wording since I never claimed that multiple groups cannot exist within the same company see twice and Itzy and Nmixx however I think maybe Itzy and nmixx would be even more popular (aka reach new heights) if twice wasn't around...


    obviously there are many contributing factors to why a new group would flounder and I would argue that the senior's groups successes will contribute to a non-insignificant part since people are likely to comment and compare the two

    Quote from menthols

    if it's just resource-wise, yeah. lotta other factors to consider tho

    I'm not just attributing the cause of why this is on resources since all senior and junior groups can co-exist at the same time


    I'm talking about getting a share of the kpop pie so to speak that if an active senior is around then those fans who might have otherwise moved on to their juniors will continue around and stay fans of their seniors...now that's not to say a person cannot like both a senior group and junior group but each fan's time and $$$ are limited

    Quote from selfmate

    I'm not just attributing the cause of why this is on resources since all senior and junior groups can co-exist at the same time


    I'm talking about getting a share of the kpop pie so to speak that if an active senior is around then those fans who might have otherwise moved on to their juniors will continue around and stay fans of their seniors...now that's not to say a person cannot like both a senior group and junior group but each fan's time and $$$ are limited

    gonna depend on the songs at that point. fresher sound tends to win out in the end. people are addicted to trends nowadays

    Quote from menthols

    gonna depend on the songs at that point. fresher sound tends to win out in the end. people are addicted to trends nowadays

    whilst true I'm not talking about specific songs per say but rather popularity overall


    I said this in another thread If I said if BP weren't around would BM be more popular as fans of BP would gravitate towards BM

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