Posts by Queeeenie

Quote from NaomiBlue

Sorry, wasn't online yesterday!

I get that, but you're asking me to back off, and I feel with the waves of anti-company rhetoric and the way I was talked to in this thread shows that this is a big issue. As I keep repeating but (you included) aren't answering is the issue is not that ppl criticize BH or have things they want to do differently, it is the taking that to the next level of BH is shafting BTS and thus it justifies the endless attacks on the company and more importantly the undermining of BTS's say in their own career.

Why is my attitude the problem, but you don't call out the anger on the other side?

I am okay calling out the over-dramatic, angry, ill-informed, and ultimately bullying tendency of the anti-BH wave that you can see clearly in this thread. You're not acknowledging them, but instead painting them as reasonable - Your points are great in the abstract, and correct, but the problem isn't in the abstract. The anger this topic caused, the waves of insults on twitter for anyone daring to 'cap for a company', it's crazy. As I keep stating, criticizing BH reasonably is GOOD. We should keep an eye on them. Let our voice be heard.

Yet suggesting they are sabotaging BTS's career is ill-informed and willfully unrealistic. Flipping because Jin wore baggy clothes (as he likes to do) is ridiculous. Acting like money spent on deals that will keep the company successful and allow BTS to continue at the scale they are is somehow *taking money right out of BTS's pocket* is conspiracy.

Where is actual proof that the company is shifting priorities off of BH like you suggest people 'notice'? Lay it out, and we can hash it out, bc this talking in the general is the issue. The problem and dramatic claims are specific.

You admit BTS are content with their company, but if that's so and they know much, much more about decisions and what's going on there than anyone else, how can fans think they know better then them? Are you saying Bangtan is so naïve or blind to these 'changing priorities' that they're letting them happen? How does that make any sense at all? Waiting for someone to answer this one.

Many fans are starting to act like they know better about BTS's career than the boys themselves and the team of ppl they have worked with for 10 plus years. That's showing serious entitlement and a worrying belief they have control over their career and are owed.

Do you see how that's messed up? The issue is fans want the perfs back; that's the criticism and campaign. Valid. Go with it. That those perfs being gone shows BTS is being undermined or under-supported is legit ridiculous. That's my point.

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I was not calling out the anger on the other side because when I first came to thread, it genuinely didn't seem that bad to me, they were sticking to the topic and I didn't see any name calling.

I'm not going to engage any other upset people right now because I'm trying to limit my time on this god awful site as much as possible.

I started talking to you first so I'll carry on with that, I don't want to make more enemies.

Yes, everyone is being a little dramatic here.

I think everyone is on their guard after the BE deluxe edition debacle, but I agree that there is no excuse to insult blindly and ignore reason.

The weird ill fitting suits were not it, but not a reason for them to leave. While I can handle hit and miss styling, I think it's understandable that people react to misses as they see it.

Criticising their daily wear is dumb though.

What deals are you referring to? The YG+ deal? I didn't understand much of that drama, but the people who were against it already had a hate boner for most YG related things.

It's not a question of them letting BigHit do anything.

There are going to be things they aren't aware of (they probably haven't been able to grasp exactly how big they actually are as much as their fans have), and things that they don't tell us outright, and times when they just go along with the flow because it's easier.

Fans just want them to have the best of the best all the time which can be un-realistic, I think that is what you're saying.

(They also are hesitant to assign blame to the members when they have a negative opinion about a choice and misdirect their frustration but lets not go there).

As others have pointed out, it's a build up of concerns, and what with news of burn outs and such, people are worrying

Quote from NaomiBlue

See, and this is the issue, because I feel the opposite - I feel like the second I make points about business, BTS supporting BH, and the issue of Scale of ARMY reaction (reasonable: We want these performances back! Unreasonable: these performances being gone means BigHit is a terrible company) I am told to sit down.

And yet no one *actually speaks to my points*.

And you're doing it as well - you're sounding reasonable, and then you literally tell me I'm brainwashed into supporting the company's every move when I am not, I agree they should try to put those performances up. But that's ignored, bc it doesn't support the painting my opinions as a BH bootlicker. It's black or white.

This is the issue. It's 1. ignoring the reasonable points to pivot back to focusing on my 'tone' as opposed to my arguments, and 2. dismissing my points, and the points of others, to claim that you're being silenced. No one is silencing you.

I think people are overreacting, full stop. We both feel cornered; I suppose that's a divide in ARMY we'll have to deal with. I think people have decided to act like they have ownership over BTS and forward the narrative that it's a bad company based not on fact or thinking or logic but emotion.

I trust in BTS and their choice in company and their vocal support. I think ARMY should make it's voice heard in *reasonable* ways. I hold to these opinions.

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I agree that it should be reasonable, I just don't see where people were raging here before you came in. In the last few pages it has become a little rage-y.

I didn't tell you that you were brainwashed.

I called out what you were saying about the fans, implying they are mantis and said it was the equivalent of them calling you a company stan.

If you want to know why people suspect 'sabotage' (an extreme word imo) it's because BH is a public company now and Lenzo has to prove to investors that they have a "formula" that works with other groups.

Most here have just noticed a shift in priorities. Not enough for everyone to make a fuss, thankfully. BTS are still active and have many of their own contributions.

I'm not advocating for BTS to leave, I know they like the company. We also can't assume they have a say in every decision the company makes, just because they resigned and have some shares. Frankly they don't have the time even if they wanted to.

Quote from NaomiBlue

Yet there's a disconnect here of allowing people to get very defensive and angry in terms of BigHit and 'both side-ism' but pointing out why this is unreasonable is seen as 'too defensive'. It's that strange issue of kpop being okay with rage and drama, but being passionate about criticizing that rage + drama is too much. Kpop cultural norms, I suppose.

"You're the one saying fans are playing into antis hands , allowing themselves to be manipulated, saying they're showing enraged sheep characteristics...This has nothing to do with what other bts antis are saying, they are forming their own opinion just like you are."

But not being difficult, I genuinely don't get what you're saying here?

There wasn't rage here, really. The tweets were not saying the things you posted about here. They didn't say Bighit was the worst or BTS should leave because they're not happy.

Fans who are voicing their concerns are not doing so because they are being manipulated by antis and simply acting like enraged sheep, just the same way your reaction is not the result of being, I dunno, brainwashed into being a supporting the company's every move.

I don't understand why genuine complaints or questions are being perceived this way. It is happening a lot recently.

Honestly I feel cornered too.

Quote from NaomiBlue

So you're absolutely certain this is gatekeeping (specifically limiting access to something, throttling BTS's exposure purposefully) as opposed to simply "the fees to buy these performances is too high"? Words matter, and what you're suggesting is that BH is purposefully hamstringing BTS by taking down perfs.

This makes utterly no sense, since BTS is still 85% of their total business. Whatever reason would they have to gatekeep them?

"BangtanTV needs BTS MVs not BH labels MVs" what does that mean? All I see is BTS content. How are you defining MVs? Don't understand.

BTS is what's taken them this far. BH has supported them, formed them, and helped them grow. The anti-BH talking point of "How dare you give any credit of BTS's success to BH!" is supremely immature.

I give credit to BH for helping BTS's success because BTS Give Credit to BigHit for Assisting in their Success. Again and Again. No more, no less. I listen to Bangtan, not some anti-BH obsessed accounts on Twitter who ignore the boys themselves because they're too into the hate boner against the company.

I trust in BTS, pure and simple. I wish more ARMY would do the same.

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It means that their music videos which have the most exposure out of all of their content isn't on their own youtube channel.

They're probably losing out on subscribers, for one.

It would really be better for it to all be in one place.

They might not be making much money from the views on those videos but I guess the potential is there for a person watching the video to end up falling down the rabbit hole and end up spending money on BTS directly in the long run.

I don't know if you realise but you are coming off defensive in all of these posts. No one called BigHit evil here or called you a company stan.

You're the one saying fans are playing into antis hands , allowing themselves to be manipulated, saying they're showing enraged sheep characteristics...This has nothing to do with what other bts antis are saying, they are forming their own opinion just like you are.

Quote from jinaland

Well, I agree with vocals enhance the feeling of the song but every song goes through studio recording & vocal processing. In studio recording everything is prepared so producers use varying types of vocal processing effects to make the best output. Vocalists & rappers will also do their best. In the end music quality is more about it's technical side. Due to that vocal processing studio version songs lose some of it emotional feeling. Live performances are for to show the real talent & skills and the emotions you are talking. In the end from the technical side there isn't any stark differences (I didn't say there is no difference I am saying stark differences) in kpop group's music. The composition & production is still there.

Take this for example, Mamamoo & Blackpink. I will definitely say Mamamoo has better vocalists & rappers. But they still have same quality songs. But BP's songs fits my taste more.

Depends on the type of processing and the type of voice, sometimes it works. You can still compare skills based on the studio tracks if you wanted to, there is more to singing than holding a tune.

One thing you cannot fake with software is vibrato (you could try but it would sound awful).

The voice is altered with effects but so are instruments, so why is it categorised differently? This is still technical. Thinking about it now, being able to match the particular tone or style of a song with your voice is not something everyone does.

And I genuinely think there are lyrics that are more impactful than others (for actual reasons). As far as I can see there is no reason for lyrics not to be judged on a quality scale like rappers are instead of just being grouped on a similar level for being a part of a kpop song.

I wonder if you think the same about solo indie artists? Non idol groups?

We listen to a whole and not just individual components separately, how they interact matters too, I've found.

...Some music production choices are just really not very musical and lazy songwriting does exist. I agree it is often exaggerated and I do see people using inflammatory language but to say there are no stark differences? That's a very egalitarian way of looking at things in a way but then I hope you've never talked down someone's music here.

What I got from you is there are no stark differences in the quality of the technical side which is only the instrumental part of the song, they are not good or bad. The singing cannot be judged on the song since they go through processing but they can be subjectively good (or bad I presume) to the listener. An artist can be high or low quality but their skill has no true correlation with how well the song is delivered??

I don't think I have a pepe meme for this.

An ideal scenario for you would be mamamoo performing blackpink songs then.

I understand why both are so popular a collab would be cool

Another edit:

No matter how I look at it, rap, lyrics and vocals are going to affect the listening experience. The more skilled you are at these, the less limited you will be as an artist. That will directly affect your approach to music. Of course no one can be the best at everything, you have to choose your focus.

If you are an outstanding singer, you aren't going to sound average on a track, even if the notes you hit are easy. If the rappers in Ateez are as weak as you say they are, it will be noticeable over an album.

You said how Ariana and Taylor have the same quality music right? But Ariana is a better singer?

It isn't just because Taylor sings in a range that suits her that her music is appreciated in the same way as someone with a more trained voice. Ariana may be a better singer than Taylor but Taylor is a better lyricist. Writing is a skill too.

Being that you said quality does exist when it comes to the skills of an artist although it's subjective, and that quality is objectively the same in terms of the music, meaning that people's judgement of it is subjective, all you are saying is that everything is subjective.

Back to square one, phew.

Quote from jinaland

I am gonna take my fav group 'ATEEZ' for example. Hongjoong & Mingi are the rappers of the group. They are technically not great rappers. They lacks a lot. But their music composition is very well suited with their rapping style & it covers their weaknesses. Only 1-2 times their rapping was miss. Music critics mostly focus on the composition of the song rather than vocals & rap.

Even Everglow's Bon Bon Chocolat is regarded as one of the best kpop debuts when that song is abused by autotune.

Great vocals & rapping enhances musical pleasure (but it's subjective) but from the technical side quality of the music only is about the music production.

Oh, I edited my post before to make myself clearer.

I think it depends, the subject matter will be addressed if it's significant. Vocals can act like another instrument in a song when it isn't just used to simply carry a melody. There's really no reason why it should be given the least importance when the voice can carry so much of the emotion in a song and is often in the forefront of it anywaym

When the artist plays to their strengths they are recognised for it.

I don't think it always happens in kpop though, some singers end up sounding worse than they actually are.

And I'm not convinced about the quality being the same still on the production side even if we take everything else out, considering how much people still use the term "over-produced". Variety within an album is still taken into consideration. People may disagree on an album score but then again they disagree on everything, there would be no point discussing how good anyone is or anything is if that was going to stop us.

Have you heard the start of Resonance? I don't know what kind of production choice that was.

I've never heard that said about Everglow but maybe I wasn't paying attention.

Quote from jinaland

Music quality comprises hooks, music production, composition & arrangement of the song. Dancing don't affect the music quality at all. We only listen music by ears. Vocals & rapping skill can not directly affect either. Cuz most kpop songs use autotune & vocal processing. The song can use autotune stylistically throughout the song but that doesn't make the music low quality if it used in the right way. But from that autotune sound it's impossible to judge whether the person is good singer or not.

Some groups can not be as extremely talented as others but they still can release well composed song that is fits their vocal range. And their lacking vocals won't affect music quality.

Autotune is not going to take away the lyrics or the flow of a rap. It can still potentially be out of place, for example. I know they don't have to max out their technical proficiency in every single song for them to have a good album but providing range/variety is a plus overall is it not? Especially looking at an artist's whole discography.

The vocal performance will still affect how the song is perceived, it's still a part of the texture. There are some things that processing can't hide that well. In kpop especially I don't think many artists get to sing in the range and style that suits them, they have to make compromises.

What classifies as a good singer is also up for debate, although I agree it is relatively less subjective. Truly lacking vocals will be fairly obvious in a song.

Quote from jinaland

I have said music quality at that time. In this case I am saying talent & skill.

shouldn't that affect music quality? They're in the songs, and sometimes idols participate in making them.

Even the way they approached mental health in their music was different.

Whalien 52, reflection, the last, love myself answer, disease?

And yet I see them grouped together for reasons like this.

If they were so important to the community and they deserved BTS' success then you should have supported them more instead of being stolen away by other groups, they were still releasing music up until a few years ago.

Quote from jinaland

B.A.P hands down highest quality group in kpop history so sad they had tragic fate.

Now when I see you, all I can think about is the time you said that objectively kpop groups are of the same quality.

In the audio clip he is asking the user where they live and how far away it is from his house

It's probably edging towards those dating sim apps

There are some creepy korean yandere-style ones already, I guess they thought there was a market for stuff like this

Fans ain't as dumb as they think

Coming through

https://mobile.twitter.com/EUPH0RIAL0VE/status/1354592582236594177

Quote from Tic_tac_toe

Apart from the lack of language knowledge it’s also that I firmly and completely believe that people who know anything about rap and people who listen to kpop are two non intersecting circles.

For it’s just extremely funny and that’s just the way it is.

As my man LMM said rap is about the word’s ability to make a difference and you simply can’t convince me to take the opinion of people who don’t know the language seriously.

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Completely non intersecting circles? That's not remotely true.

Even the genres intersect at times, within the industry. Artists will cross collab, they don't stick to just their own section of the industry. Certain rap tenets (and story telling) are universal.

Yes, words have an amazing potential to move people and we've seen that even with kpop artists.

I believe most kpop fans will understand that celebrated rappers and lyricists in Korea are celebrated for a reason.

Another thing I've found is that learning the language doesn’t make you suddenly do a 180 on the rappers you thought were good and liked.

I know you won't be convinced to take the opinion of people who don't know the language seriously based on the fact that you said don't take the opinion of anyone aside from yourself anyway honestly.

Thanks yoongi, I'll keep that in mind

Quote from Tic_tac_toe

All of that is secondary to lyricism. And judgement of rap without it is pointless and useless. It can be a factor AFTER but not without lyricism.

As for the second part that’s on you. I judge what I hear and what I listen. If I can’t I usually keep quiet. I only read critics reviews if I can my self make the connection amd assessment afterwards. Not just listen to what others say.

Sorry for the late reply.

Of course the message comes first, and that can still be studied.

Rap stands for rhythm and poetry. It isn't just spoken word, there are musical elements to it. Just wanted to say that.

You've said before that a hit song or a smtm win gives you an indication of how good a rapper is so others' opinion clearly still affects yours.

I said people learn from professionals about how an artist is received, in their home country, not that they read reviews and only listen based on that.

I obviously still listen for myself.

Listening to native speakers explain certain cultural references, slang, wordplay etc. from a song is just informing yourself so you can have a better understanding of the song, it doesn't mean that you are just following the crowd and not trusting your own opinion. You pick up things whilst immersing yourself in the culture. It's all still knowledge that you can build on indefinitely.

And Native English speakers will still look up lyrics and explanations of English rap songs to find things they've missed or do not fully understand.

No one just listens to what others approve of, but it can support your own assessment, like you said, and give weight to an argument. I don't think it's right to completely dismiss the non Korean kpop fans in these discussions, and some us have a decent understanding of the language anyway.

Quote from Vivi1388

i actually more surprised about justin bieber

i know tae loves his music, but main inspiration never expected

He said that rather than a role model, he is someone that he likes

I didn't know Taehyung liked Kurt Cobain when he was a trainee?

Wonder if he was a Nirvana fan?

His reaction to their answers was really funny

and his face when he was singing Blue and Grey!

They all seem right at home here

neoneun na, naneun neo is really that line

Stream serendipity!

here is part 1!

Quote from RunOutOfIdeas

I loved this vlive!

I think I've seen parts of it (I have memory of him mentioning bowling with Yugyeom) but I forgot he covered this song

It suits him so much!

I heard it again in this video

Quote from dispatchme

What did you expect? You didn't talk about his ass or hair.

Well I made threads on his dancing and singing and other things like that in the old forum and they received replies.

It seems more people are in the K-lounge instead of the music section.

It's not like you're talking about his skills here either.

Quote from BTSJAMS

dark & wild all the way

hip hop lover alone sways it for me LOL

Hip hop lover and cypher pt.3 on the same album

They were really spoiling us

I've had a fair few flop threads in my time

I never expected a Jungkook related thread to be one of them