Posts by heero081

Quote from xviper2k

I'm saying you recklessly play the race card and ignore any evidence that doesn't jibe with your narrow, narrative-driven view of the industry. Some of the biggest acts in American music have had Asian members, but their accomplishments mean nothing to you because they won't garner any sympathy or traction for your narrative, so they never happened. You yourself are erasing this Asian representation from history, not any record label. There's no conspiracy, just a conspiracy theory.

You're moving the goalposts again. I specifically said solo artist not from asia. I'm literally listing all the facts of the current industry and stakeholders (you can google them) and challenged you to look at the damn BB charts over the last 50 to 60 years (not hard to find). You just won't do it. Hell, I'll even make it even easier for you, don't look at top 10, 20, 30, 40. Try top 50. Find these solo artists (not groups or kpop) you speak of that you won't name or bother looking up. Don't include people of mixed race (Olivia Rodrigo, Joji, Bruno Mars, etc). Who are they? Why was someone as talented as Hikaru Utada from New York forced to go overseas 20 years ago? Where was she on the radio in the states? Again, name all these artists consistently charting in the top 50.

Quote from tetetete

It's not even all that , a lot of k-pop Stans firmly believe kpop is full of talent less individuals compared to their western counterparts and k-pop grps should stay in their lane aka stay nugu

It's why whenever BTS sees some mainstream success there's a lot of pushback from a lot of k-pop Stans

Yeah, this dude basically said all facts and historical data don't matter even when its randomly selected. I even listed the damn facts regarding the industry as it is now, but somehow there is no concerted effort to gatekeep outsiders and people of full asian descent have just flat out sucked at music and performing for almost 60 years.

Quote from xviper2k

Anyone can misconstrue data to make it tell whatever narrative they want it to. All it takes is conveniently ignoring all the contrasting variables & factors present in said data that yield a better, more objective context.

The big labels have all the power, because of course they do. They're the big labels. Again, it's stating the obvious. Does some "nugu" Kpop company you've never even heard of wield as much power as SM or Hybe? Obviously not. So why do you expect the American music industry to be any different? Is it only "gatekeeping" when the American industry is structured this way?

So, you're saying all domestic asian men and women in the west (not from asia) just couldn't cut it for 60 years in the industry? No one had any talent during this time to be pushed by a big label or produce any decent song that can be deemed radio worthy? Is that what you really believe?

I don't "expect" any big 3 label to not flex it's muscle. The music industry is very interconnected in the states regarding the platforms (radio / spotify / Billboard / Grammys). You initially stated there was no "conspiracy". Think with your head. What benefit is it to any of those labels to have artists from indie / foreign labels chart that they don't fully control other than distribution? HYBE is nothing here, just an ant at the moment. I already listed the conflicts of interest in my initial response.

Big 3 labels pay intermediaries to radio for airplay.

Big 3 labels own playlising spotify curation companies.

UMG and Columbia own stakes in Spotify.

Spotify has a committee that "decides" what gets playlisted, and pinky swears no one gets "paid", yeah right.

Payola by definition cost more for "outsiders", they can't afford it.

Billboard rigs charts to favor rigged platforms (radio / spotify).

The Grammys literally had a "secret" committee to disregard votes from its own members when it didn't like "results."

Radio and spotify are "supposed" to be neutral platforms for everyone regardless of label, country, genre, race, etc. It's clearly not. All evidence points to that. All the above is well documented. It's common sense and simple math. How is there not a conspiracy?

Quote from tetetete

No point in arguing with k-pop Stans who want to maintain the status quo

Some k-pop Stans just don't support grassroots movements

Well, must be one of those MAGA or out of touch conservative types that believes we are all truly equal here in the west. Sad to see.

Quote from xviper2k

Yep. The playing of the race card speaks for itself. As for those on indie labels having less success, they are on indie labels for a reason. It's self-explanatory, or at least it should be.

Yeah. Ignore all the historical data and all points made with no rebuttal. No gatekeeping exist in the music industry here in the states here according to you. Big 3 labels have no power or influence on radio or spotify in your world view.

Quote from xviper2k

That sounds like a victim complex on your part, especially when Kpop songs have been charting. There's no shadowy agenda to keep Kpop artists off the chart. But if bulk buying is the only thing putting them on the chart in the first place, then they don't deserve to be on it. No one should have bulk buying counted, American artists included.

Song quality is completely subjective.

You clearly don't follow the charts or the dynamics of the music industry in the states or western media trends over the decades or have any understanding on the stakeholders of the industry to have this take. So you're telling me that no full asian solo artist foreign or domestic other than Jimin in 2023 or Kyu Sakamoto in 1963 was good enough or talented enough to have a #1 song on the top 100? Both of those songs originated from foreign labels. So in a span of almost 60 years, no other asian man or woman had a enough talent to produce or perform a quality song in that time period to chart at that spot (Psy peak was 2)?

So you're also saying artists under indie labels are not having a difficult time getting airtime or spotify playlisting without paying? I must be also imagining the 3 big labels paying third party "intermediaries" to pay radio stations to avoid breaking laws for decades. I must be seeing illusions when I google spotify stakeholders and see UMG and Columbia / Sony own a piece of the platform. I guess I'm also imagining the controversies of the spotify platform and their so called "committees" that decide who gets playlisting. Those "secret" Grammy "committees" during award season must of been fabricated using your logic here. I guess I'm just a victim going mad here.

Here is an exercise for you. Pick any random week ending BB top 100 from any year, any decade. For fun, focus on the top 40. Then look at the labels they are under. Try to find the "indie" labels or lack thereof, especially in the last 10 years. Look for the radio and spotify streaming data. Do this 5 to 10 times. If you're telling me, everyone is getting a fair shot here regardless of label / genre / race. I must be going completely crazy.

Quote from xviper2k

If bulk buying is the only way Kpop songs can get acknowledged, then they shouldn't be acknowledged.

The industry won't allow kpop songs to get acknowledgement regardless of quality of song or size of fanbase.

I keep telling people the gatekeeping in the industry is stronger than ever unless you are an artist under one of the 3 big labels, in a "desirable" genre, from the US, and white. Radio and Spotify playlisting is a lost cause and a waste of resources for any non big 3 label / artist. You're better off keeping your money in the long run and building a cult following. Look at all the western pop artist that fade out after 3 or 4 years and pretty much survive release to release. Now Billboard is trying to prevent the one lone avenue fans had to influence change on the charts. Kpop labels are better off investing in additional music labels / influence than burning through capital trying to appease these gatekeeping pigs. Kpop artist should promote themselves in other ways or save their own cash / royalties than play the expensive payola game they and their label cannot afford. There are other ways to promote yourself and get your music out there than traditional methods.

Quote from mysterikmagick

None of this is actually a satisfactory answer. This all just screams "failure to see reality and adapt." Which is the point of my thread.

And you can drop the tired payola angle -- they have literally not even made it available for airplay, which 16+ BTS songs to date have received. (Check allaccess.com, which archives all this info.) This has been confirmed from multiple sources.

A song that isn't even uploaded for official radio use is at a massive disadvantage. Yet To Come never got an impact date but it was available for airplay and managed to chart. And no, you aren't entering some sort of deal with the devil for uploading your song for radio use, ffs.

It's been proven again and again for decades. Radio industry won't play it, so what if they make it available or not. Even stuff like Waste it on me would be played late at night or in the afternoon. Independent labels (HYBE is considered a mirco label) won't get airtime (UMG being the distributor doesn't matter here). Even black artists from the R&B and Hip Hip genre from big 3 labels struggle to get pop radio time in the states. It's a huge problem here. Even established artist like Ed Sheeran are known to pay a ton for payola and playlisting, but somehow people here think Jimin will easily get covered for free by a small foreign kpop label (kpop labels have no power here)? Payola will always cost more for non big 3 labels and indie artist. UMG is just a distributor, it has no incentive to promote a group of a potential rival they have little to no control over.

Bighit and Jimin didn't want to pay for the payola promotion (radio / playlisting). That's it. If you had physical promotions like more tv appearances on shows (western tv) and touring, and promoted one of the other members during another's promotion schedule, people then would complain about undercutting the previous member's release. These solo songs/ promotions are essentially an extension of the "BTS" group promotion to keep them relevant during their group hiatus (it's working btw). It also seems they are holding content and solo albums back for the time when they are all enlisted. Pretty much no lapse in "BTS" music.

Quote from itiswhatitisss

There were literal threads made here, on this very forum about how Olivia was an industry plant, how her success was fishy/inorganic and all of that was purely because good 4 u was going against Butter on the Hot100 So.

Love Taylor but alot of her fans (esp the newer ones) are really rude for no reason so that's not new. ATRL drags everyone but men who see alot of success will generally get dragged harder, BTS aren't the exception. Honestly there are alot of obvious answers to this question and OP is acting obtuse for no reason but what's new

She was though. It wasn't just kpop fans calling it out. She literally came out of nowhere with her public appearances and her spotify playlisting, etc. Her label did her a disservice by making it so damn obvious while she was being marketed as being a random girl singing song in her room. She really didn't need the boost. It would have been better for her to go through the Billie Eilish route of first growing a strong following. It was bad though that part of the BTS fanbase took it to extremes, unfortunately.

This is really something. Hope he can pull this feat off.

Quote from LCJK

Yes, they are but I believe Geffen can do something about this. The way they handled Olivia Rodrigo, I believe they could push BTS hard.

They won't. BTS is not one of their artist. Radio only happens if both Bighit / Jimin pay the payola.

Quote from KpopJop

even if quantifiably it won't add much (I agree with you), it at least shows that BigHit is willing to play the game as optimally as possible

"even if quantifiably it won't add much (I agree with you), it at least shows that BigHit / Jimin is willing to play the game as optimally as possible" half correct

Quote from Jasmine_Waters

Suddenly I'm for men's rights????

Lol, that's funny! Many asian men in the west won't openly admit this or think of it this way, but the emergence of BTS and their fanbase in the west has done more for the perception of asian male masculinity than anything I can remember. Whether BTS Army are aware of it or not, they literally take "bullets" for asian men in online spaces when defending BTS. They don't get enough credit for that. There is no group online large enough or significant enough to fight those battles that are so persistent. That's why following BTS and their fanbase is so fascinating and rewarding at the same time. Can a loud minority be toxic as hell, sure? But we can live with it. And as impressive as this is, the one I am more anticipated to see is the eventual ad campaign for V of BTS. He has even more potential since has even more exotic features women outside the kpop bubble can't ignore. A well run ad campaign featuring him could make him the "face" of asian male masculinity globally. He literally has "sexiest man on earth" potential.

This is really impressive, I really mean it. Some positivity in the sea of negativity. Never thought I would see the day CK ads and global campaigns centered around an asian male all-star footballer or a global pop artist in a short period of time. Huge CK billboard ads of asian men in the west of all places for people to see. Hopefully this continues going forward. As an asian man growing up in the west, all I have to say is thanks to the progressive thinking people out there, kpop fans, especially BTS ARMY for pushing this into the stratosphere. Asian men and woman can be more than the typical stereotypes Hollywood likes to portray them as, especially the men. Hopefully, the campaigns centered around BTS members continue to prove to be successful and change business minds.

Quote from CandyHeart

what that user also misses is that direct royalties of huge hits isn't the only profit you get from them - they are probably even a small part. Dynamite and Butter catapulted bts to Mainstream in the west. That change opened so many doors for them & gave them insane exposure. The indirect profits of a huge hit are a lot more than the direct royalties.

People don't want to read. I literally stated BTS's biggest benefit was indirect in what I wrote earlier in the discussion. People see what they want to see.

Quote from Afriyieau1

I am mostly certain that Jimin will get TTH soon if his streams remain stable unless BH management are so inept to not see the potential

But it will be funny to see people here eat their words especially those who equate “playlisting of a song gaining traction” to “payola”. Like these are the same people who will cheer when we get radioplay too so I just ignore

Spotify playlisting isn't payola? Is that we are going with here? Only radio payola is considered the real payola?

Quote from sweetenerstan

That user is spilling non-sense lol. Trying to imply (stupidly) that just because CR was directly involved in BTS English hits, HYBE and the members made little money from that. This is why thinking or researching first before saying anything should be done in any situations.

You don't even need to be well-versed in the music industry to know that in a standard royalties profit-sharing, everyone gets a cut including HYBE and the members.

In a standard royalty profit-sharing the PUBLISHER (the one who collects royalties to be shared with songwriters, composers and people who made the song) AND RIGHTS HOLDER (to be shared between the label and artist) get an equal cut, but it can be very favourable to the rights holder if that said artist/group they handle is a hit maker or popular. It depends on the contract. In BTS case, SONY MUSIC was their music publisher, then HYBE is the rights holder.

FYI, BTS is still an independent artists in the US so their contract has always been favourable in comparison when you fully sign in a US label. Their deal with CR and UMG have always been a music distribution only.

So to make it clear and correct that user's misinfo, CR only gets some royalties in their Eng hit songs as their music distributor. The CEO of CR only got some royalties in Butter since he was also part of the writing credits.

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Unbelievable. Dynamite and Butter are not like "Yet to Come" or "DNA" or any other BTS song. Get real. People flat out diminishing Columbia's take here and other obvious industry factors, because people want to point fingers at something they don't like.

Quote from tetetete

bwl also had good playlisting and tth with no columbia

Who is Halsey's label? Who owns and distributes that label? All the other title tracks that got play listing, Bighit / BTS paid for the payola. The radio promotion faded as Hybe / Bighit / BTS realized that the exercise was mainly futile and pointless. There is a good reason they don't promote radio much anymore other than occasionally doing it to launch new groups. And even those promotions don't really move the needle much.