Posts by FoReveries

As always, it depends on what metric or take you use to determine it, as there isn't just one way of judging these things.

But if we're talking about biggest girl group song in terms of popularity in SK, then yes, Red Flavor was the biggest girl group song in 2017.

Other songs like IU's 'Through The Night' and YJS' 'Like It' were bigger according to Gallup (resp. #1 and #2 2017 top song), but of the idol group songs, not just gg songs bu bg songs included, Red Flavor was biggest (#5 in 2017 Gallup ranking).

For those who're curious how the Gallup listing for 2017 looked like:

1. Yoon Jong Shin — “Like It” (8.8 percent)

2. IU — “Through the Night” (4.3 percent)

3. IU – “Autumn Morning” (4.2 percent)

4. Jang Yoon Jung – “Call the Soul” (3.3 percent)

5. Red Velvet – “Red Flavor” (2.9 percent)

6. BTS’s “DNA,” Jin Sung’s “In Andong Station” (2.7 percent)

8. TWICE’s “TT,” Wanna One’s “Pick Me” (2.5 percent)

10. PSY’s “New Face” (2 percent)

Likey has been forgotten? I wasn't aware but if that's the case, that's a shame

It's still 1 of the catchiest 3rd gen songs imho, and I know I'll never forget it because it's part of 1 of the mashups that I've listened to god-knows-how-many times

Still an iconic 3rd gen mashup bop.

Quote from gerrard174

JYP is #2 really thanks to how loyal the fanbase of his groups are. JYP is the new SM with groups that have super loyal fanbase.

And also timing. SM dropped so much thanks to that high profile management fiasco. Once SM recovers fully from that, they will be #2 behind Hybe again. After all, SM has a much better business model - loyal fanbase + relevancy in the new generation (both RIIZE and aespa are doing good on charts).

Quote from TheBotter

I mean yeah JYP is weak as shit interms of new groups just not taking off at all, I would wager it's easier to get Nmixx a hit song than it is to turn one of SM's acts into a stadium touring act. It's also very likely Stray Kids may book stadiums in their next tour on top of their stellar streams and millions of album sales.

I also don't think it was the management drama that's the main cause (although it didn't help of course). I agree that SM's problem is more longterm and that it's more an underdeveloped international network/expertise/knowhow infrastructure when it comes to the international (esp. Western) market that's the issue. Basically, they dropped the ball for multiple years in that area.

But I disagree that SM don't have the groups that have the potential to fill stadiums. EXO was a top concert tour act for years before SM's ignoring them, NCT have shown to be big enough to do it as well, basically all the SM groups and artists have suffered structural neglect for many years from SM in this area.

No, it's more that SM has had an unwillingness or lack of confidence or even made the purposeful choice to keep tours as small or nonexistent as possible.

Where they're the most experimental of the Big 4 when it comes to concepts, group formats and musical styles, they're the most conservative and hesitant of the Big 4 when it comes to concert tours and album stocks.

Super Junior, after years of complaining about this unwilling attitude of SM, even pushed for their own sublabel so they could have full control over their concert tours and where and when to hold it, and how large. That was 1 of the reasons.

Heh, interesting.

I hope this means Melon charting won't be regarded as the end-all-be-all truth of charting anymore, while all other charts are categorically being 'forgotten'

Quote from Dreamer95

Girl you tried

? I tried what? Saying that Blackpink has been the #1 most popular girl group for a couple of years now? That's not true?

My guess is Blackpink influence.

Since Blackpink has been the #1 most popular girl group for a couple of years now (since surprisingly, music industry in the West doesn't do girl groups anymore, at least not successfully ), people are bound to check out the new Blackpink sibling group.

A number of those people will like what they see and return to the group and add them to their playlist and watch list.

Kinda what happens with all the same-company groups that follow after the top popular groups.

Quote from YamaChwan

There is a bit of a false equivalence happening here, not just with you, but with a couple other comments here as well.

Let's clear this up.

Mamamoo's public relevance has absolutely declined, and as the MooMoo who was as locked into their metrics as anyone on the Internet, I'll be the first to admit that.

But their fandom is as strong as it's ever been. We didn't see any significant boosts when the industry saw a huge increase in album sales, but we didn't decline from our 3rd gen numbers either. MooMoos remain one of the most loyal fandoms, and we will still fill arenas and our scream other fandoms at music shows.

Mamamoo completely sold out arenas in NY, Chicago and LA, so the international demand is there too.

The fans are the ones who knew they weren't disbanding and stay connected with the girls' individual schedules. The public did not, and RBW, their label, also started actively trying to convince their shareholders they aren't just the "Mamamoo Company" and started investing their time and assets elsewhere. That's not fan cope either; they actually said that.

So, in some sense, you're right. It's not just their lack of activity as a group; it's a combination of factors.

Minimal group activity, bad luck of a pandemic delaying their first real world tour, label no longer prioritizing their promos, member signing at a different label during a time when people questioned if the group would stick together AND the subsequent takeover of the 4th generation.

The one song they did release, after all of this, Illela, didn't chart extremely well, but it did chart. And that came out in 2022. They're basically on that BlackPink release schedule now, compared to 2018, where they released 4 albums in a year.

I think that's a good enough explanation.

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Yeah, it usually is a combination of factors that play a role in things like this, although at times you can also see some main/top causes.

The lessened group activity, departure of a member from the company as well as not coming back with a HIP level catchy song altogether produced the downward trend. And it won't exactly help with comeback schedules if members aren't all with the same company anymore.

So all the things you mentioned make sense.

What's still unexpected is their album sales. Before the onset of the decline, they were at 170-180k. Not only did their sales numbers not increase like for all/most other groups, they even decreased to 130-140k.

That peak was at November 2020, the first album afterwards was in June 2021, and then it got 130-140k, same for the album after that one.

I think June 2021 was also around the time Wheein's departure was announced, I guess her departure resulted in this dip?

Quote from YamaChwan

Aya was the title track, but the public responded much more favorably to Dingga so they ended up promoting it way more.

To be fair to Mamamoo, they were the top trend on Melon during the initial release of their album, and Illela didn't fail to chart or anything as bad as some results we've seen from other 3rd generation groups, so they weren't irrelevant. It was just several steps down from what they used to do to the charts.

The scandal had nothing to do with their digital dominance declining. That was all the way back in 2017--they set the record for 24 hour unique listeners that year. In the history of girl group songs, only BP's D4 accumulated more. 2018 was one of their strongest overall years, if not the strongest.

So yeah. That's not why.

Also, they didn't release a ton of music as a group after Aya. There was Where Are We and that was pretty much it until Illela.

They just weren't active as a group.

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I guess them being far less active didn't help them.

Still, it only feels like a partial explanation: there have been other groups that have had hiatus times just as long and longer inbetween comebacks who weren't affected much at all by it. And the periods of inactivity inbetween comebacks weren't even that long for Mamamoo.

But with Mamamoo it almost looks like a sudden snap, as if from one moment to the next, things had changed severely. Not just charting but also album sales stagnated.

The only thing that's different from groups that weren't affected by any hiatus times, is that Mamamoo saw Wheein not renewing her contract.

It must have hit Mamamoo as well as their fanbase harder than expected.

Quote from chaesooo

SM had more resources and connections to start with but still struggled in the west.

They just pushed the wrong acts. Exo and red velvet have way more potential.

Fans just made up the excuse “they don’t care about western validation” because of underperformance in contrast to contenders.

I think they didn't care about western validation that much for a long time, at least not to the degree as the other big K-pop companies did. Their main moves and courses simply weren't directed towards the west like other companies did.

But they do care now, only they're clumsy, seemingly inexperienced and ineffective at it and seemed to have joined the game in a (too) late stage.

Yeah, I've been saying it for years: SM are the most lacking and ineffectual of the Big 4 when it comes to hype promotion, brand/image building and international promotion. Either they miss the knack or talent for it, or they miss the network of connections needed, or a combination.

And this has been apparent since (late) 2nd gen and onwards.

Quote from icyruios

SM always wanted that western validation.

They had no creative juice, so they basically took English songs and made them Korean. Like I'm not talking sampling parts it's literally the same song

(fx) Hot Summer from this

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It's called outsourcing, even a lot of the top popular US pop artists are doing it and have done it the past decades, I don't think there's even that much of a difference compared with other K-pop companies that use songs and songwriters that aren't from the groups themselves. I also don't think it's saying much about creativity when they show that in so many other areas like concepts etc that are controlled by inhouse people.

I disagree with that they've always wanted western validation, at least not to the same degree as the other big companies strived for. If that had been the case, they would have done a lot of things differently, like how for example YG had adhered their style of K-pop to a more western-acceptable flavor and image ever since BB and 2NE1. If anything, SM were late in the game, even the last of the big companies.

And they certainly have an issue in that they don't realise or realise too late what's important for international growth and promotion, they miss opportunities when their groups release songs that could've gone big(ger) in the West - e.g. RV's Bad Boy and Psycho - and when they do make a full force, full-resource effort, they fumble the ball spectacularly and waste all potential (SuperM) => this already should prove how lacking their marketing&promotion teams' capabilities and talents are.

I think the main cause for any EXO decline is SM: not only are they the most ineffective of the Big 4 when it comes to international promotion and brand building (esp. outside Asia) for all their groups, outside of SM's lacking capabilities and network of connections there also seems to have been a purposeful move to hobble EXO's growth even when they were still at their peak.

I really like her personality, style and aura, she has this innate calm elegance about her in whatever she does or says that makes her fascinating to watch.

And OP, thanks for the tweet link, I hadn't seen that show episode with Karina, but I'll be watching it

Usually scandals can affect a group, they have been involved in a scandal iirc but not sure if it was in the time period where their charting went wrong.

I think it's as simple as that the songs they released just weren't catchy enough to chart well - they're not the only group that suffers from this - and that 1 of their members didn't renew the contract will probably have affected the group as well as their results.

They also seem to be one of the few groups that didn't get the same lift in fanbase/album sales as most other groups did when the big spike started to happen: only once when it started and their sales doubled from 70-80k to over 150k. But after that, it never went further, even stagnated.

Hyoyeon and Minzy

I think Lisa is the strongest in stage presence but not necessarily dance skills, and I found Momo's performance one of the most disappointing ones in the Hit the Stage show.

I know too little of WheeIn's dance skills and not sure about SinB, but of the five, I like Seulgi's dance talents best: not only has she shown broad versatility, but I really like how sharp, precise, controlled and fast her dancing can be compared to other female dancers, it's especially noticeable with bg choreo.

The OP numbers are confusing. What is being compared here, what the groups had in views and stream count after the first month of a song release, or the views and streams of songs that are years old vs a few weeks old?

Because if it's that last one, then it makes no sense.

Views and streams aren't like album sales: they'll keep increasing after the first month, because people will listen more than once to a song if they like it, and they'll do that after the first month.

This thread got resurrected?

But now we're here, might as well ask

Quote from WhyKnock

So, did anything you have said helped them?

LS probably has had its final promotion which went nowhere, and there is a rumor that Soyeon will launch her own girl group sometime next year, which basically means the end of LS.

I agree that Chowon is heavily underused/misused in Lightsum, seeing as how she was the dark horse of PD48 and won the top vocals ranking in it, added to that that she can muster up a stage presence that could've put the known names with the best stage presence and most swag to shame, and this already at 15 years old.

But why do you think Soyeon (do you mean from Idle, or another one?) has it out for Chowon, and could you give examples of situations where this was shown?

Personally I like bridges, variety and surprises in songs. But let every company do what they do best and feel good at

Also, when it comes to bridges it's not about the bridge itself but the implementation and execution of it that makes it shine.

Quote from sonemariam

Also, rumour has it that Sunny is making her own label with her sister.

I hope it's true. She deserves to have longevity as well because she worked so hard for the past 20+ years of her career.

She is?

Tbh, I thought she was done with the idol life, to me she looked like she was done with the idol life and career for many years, and even more so after Jessica left.

This again? It's starting to get idiotic and mindnumbing to see K-pop fans do the same exact routine of whining and complaining every year after year, whenever not their faves but some group or artist they dislike or coming from a company they dislike wins this or that 'precious' award.

And now there's even complaining about performance order?! How petty can you get.

Simply accept that award shows, very much like survival shows, will never be 100% fair and have never been 100% fair and will have their own rules they'll follow, and be done with it. Simply enjoy the show, the performances and the fancams.

I've found award show outcomes of award shows deserving of scepsis for many years now, one show more than the other, but overall it's best not to expect 100% fairness.

But what's always great of these award shows for K-pop fans are the performances. Groups will often add an extra touch to their performances. Same for the performances at the end-of-year shows.

What do you like more and do you find yourself looking forward to more, the performances at the award shows or the end-of-year shows?