My opinion (as a long-term BG fan) of why GG are selling so close to BGs nowadays

  • I always liked music from both GG and BGs, I've always found GG music and MVs to be much more likable compared to BGs. Still, my favorite groups and the ones I invested most of my time in were always Boygroups, with only Mamamoo and Red Velvet making my top 10 list of most listened groups the other being all Boygroups


    I think it used to be fairly common to listen to several Girlgroups, but save most of your time, and investment and purchases for one, two, or three favorite boygroups. That's how I think most of hardcore pop fans used to behave


    However there is a not-so-sudden increase in GG album sales. Yes I'm aware BGs still selling more. The world's biggest girlgroup can't sell 3 million yet, while the biggest boygroups either are selling 4 million or are going to sell in the near future


    Still, the gap between GGs and BGs sales were never nearly as small as today since the 1st generation and we have several GGs outselling their males counterparts and generation friends. Kpop growth aside, one could expect BGs to outsell GGs by a comfortable margin still, as most of the new kpop fans come from outside Korea, and outside Korea BGs were always much more popular than GGs. So... what's changed?


    This is a LONG post, so for people who don't like to read, here is the TLDR version:


    1. Less Sexualization

    2. More fan content released

    3. Better live performances than during 2nd and 3rd generations

    4. Boygroups no longer releasing enough good music to fill niches they used to in the past

    5. GGs don't get sidelined because they release a flop song in Korea

    6. Outside Korea and Japan people don't need to pretend to date their idols hence why gender matters way less


    Now a little more detailed perspective of the points stated before:




    And I think that's it. This has become a very long post, so discuss

  • BGs didn’t have way better live performances that’s just your biased 2nd and 3rd bg stan talking pls


    Instead it’s just the level of dancing that’s changed, ggs do harder choreo


    ggs like snsd sistar Kara 2ne1 completely ate their stages up compared to bgs like super junior or whatever

    I disagree. It's not only about talent and skills, most of GG didn't have as much fancy production as BGs and definitely had way less space and time to perform. 2NE1 is actually the exception. Do you remember Red Velvet, Mamamoo or GFriend having big productions on Gayos and award shows? Because I honestly can't


    Edit: Thinking about it again, EVEN if it was only a matter of doing harder choreo, then you can just assume choreo is the most important skill for an idol, because actually it is. Dancing harder becoming a selling point definitely helps a group to get attention and fans, even more so than any other talent we agreeing or not

  • NO


    the only reason is that BG are lazy and they are just resting on what succeed that's why we only see BG doing teen concept or badboy type of concept


    While GG have always try to push and try new concept to stand out from their other GG peers and from BG

    There's so much pool of concept among GG recently,


    teen crush/ Girl crush with Itzy

    sci-fi girl crush with Aespa

    Girl crush with Blackpink

    High teen cocnept with NJ

    Feminine/ elegant with IVE

    cute with fifty fifty


    and the list goes on and on


    that's why Kpop fans are more attracted to GG now

    because before in Kpop, GG used to only do Girl crush, cute or sexy

    and these recent yeears they learn that they could expand this genre to something bigger by adding a twist to it

    and it's something BG still didn't learn to do it

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  • Isn't this what I've said in point 4? :pepewhat:

  • I dont think the point about BG music being bad or not diverse enough holds true. Maybe at a certain point when it was EXO/BTS/NCT/SKZ/MonstaX/Got7, it was literally all edgy EDM or EDM trap or hip hop. Hardcore choreo heavy songs with dark or darkish aesthetics.


    But i would say since TXT and BTS' Boy With Love came out, things are a lot more diverse. In fact, there have been several diverse songs being put out by different groups over the past couple years. I think it's an unfounded stereotype now to claim BG songs arent GP friendly, i think there are plenty of retro concepts, cutesy concepts, rock concepts, out there to allow the GP to pick and choose what they like. It's just that they havent bothered to give anyone but BTS a chance, and with them gone, it now seems like Seventeen is getting a chance. To me, it's very curious how only one BG seems to be able to truly get GP attention at any one time. Starting with BB, then BTS, and now Seventeen.


    Just look at the variety that you can get these days:

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  • I dont think the point about BG music being bad or not diverse enough holds true. Maybe at a certain point when it was EXO/BTS/NCT/SKZ/MonstaX/Got7, it was literally all edgy EDM or EDM trap or hip hop. Hardcore choreo heavy songs with dark or darkish aesthetics.


    But i would say since TXT and BTS' Boy With Love came out, things are a lot more diverse. In fact, there have been several diverse songs being put out by different groups over the past couple years. I think it's an unfounded stereotype now to claim BG songs arent GP friendly, i think there are plenty of retro concepts, cutesy concepts, rock concepts, out there to allow the GP to pick and choose what they like. It's just that they havent bothered to give anyone but BTS a chance, and with them gone, it now seems like Seventeen is getting a chance. To me, it's very curious how only one BG seems to be able to truly get GP attention at any one time. Starting with BB, then BTS, and now Seventeen.

    Maybe there isvariety on BG side, but not among the tops groups and definitely NOT to the same extent as girlgroups


    As I said, I used to be exposed to a variety of mid-sized boygroups, nowadays I feel like there is TxT, Stray Kids, Enhypen, Treasure, Ateez and Thee Boyz and the other groups are just so nugu that I cannot keep up with their release schedule


    Also, for smaller groups the lack of money to release quality MVs and well produced stages can severely impact their appeal. During 2nd and 3rd gen kpop was a much more humble market, now every groups are releasing big budget productions, it's hard to nugu groups to compete

  • I see your #1 and take it step farther by saying groups aren't catering to the male gaze anymore. Women have more buying power and that was a major factor in bgs dominating for so long

    I remember seeing somewhere once that SM GGs were designed to appeal to women more so then men, a big part of the reason why SM has had great success with their girl groups.


    I think in general now, the successful gg's are positioned more as the girls you want to be, instead of the girls you want to be with.... if that makes sense.

  • The kpop community, be it international or Korean, has always been largely dominated by female fans, right? One of the main points you're missing, which could be related to your #1 argument, is that those female fans no longer want to support problematic male idols. Although yes, female idols also get involved in scandals, male idol-related scandals tend to be more related to violence or, even, violence against women. I've seen this going around on k-communities and twitter and people are just scared of stanning potential predators, for the lack of a better word.


    Aditionally, ggs (well, at least ggs from the big 4) have been releasing 'empowering' music that is more appealing to the female audience whose lyrics resonate with them. That also explains why Miley Cyrus' Flowers or Shakira's most recent hit have also gotten extremely popular. Songs about empowerment or standing up for yourself attract a lot of interest.

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  • Girl groups are now targeting female teens.


    Gen 3 you had more groups with sexy/sexier concepts, which target male fans, who are not as loyal and spend less.


    As a note, teen or tween pop or high teen or whatever you want to call it is not as effective outside Korea, because fewer teens are Asian, and even fewer Korean.

    Edited once, last by K-PL ().

  • In which universe did EXO only release edgy EDM I can name more diverse EXO songs than anything you have posted here lol.

  • as a gg fan I'll say they are not.. its the same in every gen.

    They are though? I mean, look at third gen we used to had even GFriend, Mamamoo and RV struggling to sell 100k a number that even mid tier Boygroups used to sell easily


    We will soon have more GGs selling 1.5 million in 4th gen (Aespa, Ive, and likely New Jeans) than BGs selling 1 million (TxT, Enhypen and Ateez are the only 4th gen BGs who can sell that much). Hell I think we will have more GGs selling 2 million than BGs selling 1 million

  • Ain't nobody want to listen to k-pop boys singing that's why 💀

    Okay that's a stretch


    Stray Kids, TxT and Enhypen all have more than 7 million listeners (TxT has 9 and I'm sure next SKz will get than on 10 million)


    That's Aespa, G Idl, and Itzy level. I'd go as far and say SKz can pull Ive numbers. Only New Jeans is untouchable


    There is an audience for BGs still, only in Korea they are 100% nugu now


    Outside Korea, BGs crowd did not get smaller, it was the GG crowd that got huge


    That's why while I believe BGs hard certain part on this, they are not the main culprit for the rise in GG sales

  • My opinion is very simple. The only places K-pop used to be popular in the past, multifandom culture isn't/wasn't a thing. So since most of K-pop audience is women who stans boygroups as their priority, they bought their albums and listened to girlgroups casually.


    K-pop expanded to multiple countries with a strong and solid niche of people, along with the access to K-pop albums being easily than It was on previous generations. Nowdays, you don't need to buy your one and only ultimate's album. You can buy the albums from your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc favorite group. Despite selling millions, I think most of them aren't their buyers priority.


    Look at Korea, for example. It's their culture to support one group. But you see Stray Kids, The Boyz, Treasure, TXT touring bigger than 99% of the ggs there nowdays, even If they have big hits.

  • My opinion is very simple. The only places K-pop used to be popular in the past, multifandom culture isn't/wasn't a thing. So since most of K-pop audience is women who stans boygroups as their priority, they bought their albums and listened to girlgroups casually.


    K-pop expanded to multiple countries with a strong and solid niche of people, along with the access to K-pop albums being easily than It was on previous generations. Nowdays, you don't need to buy your one and only ultimate's album. You can buy the albums from your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc favorite group. Despite selling millions, I think most of them aren't their buyers priority.


    Look at Korea, for example. It's their culture to support one group. But you see Stray Kids, The Boyz, Treasure, TXT touring bigger than 99% of the ggs there nowdays, even If they have big hits.

    That's insightful


    Do you have any stats to support your point about touring? Because most of GG exploded after pandemic and likewise do not have solid touring power... yet


    Let's see how Ive, NJ, LSRF and Aespa perform touring-wise

  • It's an exaggeration on my part but GGs music just has a wider appeal


    Bgs still have a more hardcore fanbase

  • I think it's better if someone will post the difference in bg and gg physical sales for us to see if it is really the case. Top 10 latest album for 10 gg and bg will be good enough.

  • Hmmm but SKZ and TXT are all selling like 3 million probably can do 4 million with their next cb.


    Has the ratio changed that much? I don’t feel so.

    On average? They did A LOT


    Sure TxT and SKz are far and away above every girlgroups but that's pretty much it


    Enhypen having no big Chinese fandom to support them has little to no leeway to reach the same numbers, their next comeback will show that


    Ateez can sell 1 million if they comeback once a year, but their fandom purchasing power is limited and honestly they are not making many waves anymore, I think they will keep growing but not enough to catch SKz and TxT, not even close


    The Boyz peaked already, that's clear to me, their last album sold half million, their peak was in 2021


    Treasure have two members leaving which really damaged their fandom their last album sold 600k which was an actual decrease. Will they be able to recover? I dunno, but they will soon be 3 years old and YG seem to have no fucking clue to what they will do with them




    Maybe the next generation of BGs do better. Zerobaseone is pretty hyped

  • But I don’t find this that interesting. Yeah 4th gen has more number of interesting GGs than BGs.


    Imo if aespa/NJ/IVE sell as much as SKZ/TXT instead of half or two thirds I would find it more interesting.

  • Hmmm but SKZ and TXT are all selling like 3 million probably can do 4 million with their next cb.


    Has the ratio changed that much? I don’t feel so.

    Other than SKZ and TXT, 4th gen ggs are outselling the bgs. We have more ggs close or surpassing the 1m range, like aespa, lesserafim, idle, newjeans, itzy, even Nmixx is close too (850k last album). While for bgs, other than SKZ and TXT, we have enhypen and ateez and that's it. Maybe we gonna have more 1m seller bgs, with ZB1 and other predicted bgs from big companies debuting this year (pledis boys, zico group and sm bg)

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  • I think it's better if someone will post the difference in bg and gg physical sales for us to see if it is really the case. Top 10 latest album for 10 gg and bg will be good enough.


    Okay, their LAST albums:


    1. Stray Kids - 3.4 million

    2. TxT - 2.8 million

    3. Aespa - Almost 1.7 million so far, 2 million almost guaranteed

    4. Enhypen - Close to 1.6 million

    5. Ive - 1.5 million in its first month

    6. NewJeans - 1.3 million

    7. Les Serafim - 1.2 million on its first week

    8. G Idle - 1.1 million pre orders

    9. Ateez - 1 million*

    10. Itzy - 1 million



    I got them all from Wikipedia, so please @ me if any number is wrong or out to date


    *Ateez last physical release was a single album that sold ~500k without much fanfare, I'm getting them 1 million from their July comeback only because I'm sure it was not treated as proper comeback, you can otherwise change them for Nmixx who sold 900k

  • Are you counting the increase in versions for both bgs and ggs which feeds the buying frenzy even more? So both bgs and ggs are doing more sales than ever before cause they are selling gazillion versions, some even dirt cheap. The way increase in million sellers is directly correlated to increase in versions is a fact most Kpop stans refuse to acknowledge.


    More sales are not necessarily an indication of more fandom but more about who has the most powerful C bars mass buying more versions.

  • That's insightful


    Do you have any stats to support your point about touring? Because most of GG exploded after pandemic and likewise do not have solid touring power... yet


    Let's see how Ive, NJ, LSRF and Aespa perform touring-wise

    If you think about It, all the mentioned boygroups exploded during pandemic too and It was their first opportunity to have a real tour.


    No female group is doing KSPO Dome currently other than BLACKPINK, TWICE and now Red Velvet on their 9th year.


    From 4th gen, aespa did 2 concerts on Jamsil Arena, IDLE did 2 concerts on Olympic Hall, ITZY did 2 on Olympic Handball Gym. The others will probably start from Jamsil/Olympic Hall before going to KSPO Dome too in some years.


    Stray Kids, The Boyz, Treasure, TXT all made multiple dates on KSPO Dome. SKZ and TXT did 3/2 concerts on Jamsil Arena + 2 concerts on KSPO Dome in less than a year. :pepe-notes:

  • The kpop community, be it international or Korean, has always been largely dominated by female fans, right? One of the main points you're missing, which could be related to your #1 argument, is that those female fans no longer want to support problematic male idols. Although yes, female idols also get involved in scandals, male idol-related scandals tend to be more related to violence or, even, violence against women. I've seen this going around on k-communities and twitter and people are just scared of stanning potential predators, for the lack of a better word.


    Aditionally, ggs (well, at least ggs from the big 4) have been releasing 'empowering' music that is more appealing to the female audience whose lyrics resonate with them. That also explains why Miley Cyrus' Flowers or Shakira's most recent hit have also gotten extremely popular. Songs about empowerment or standing up for yourself attract a lot of interest.

    This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking, especially about ditching the men because of their behavior. I also moved away from stanning boy groups because of their problematic behavior. Especially with how anti-feminist Korea is, the risk of accidentally stanning some hannam bastard is too high. Looking back on someone like Heechul, for example, it's crazy how I used to think he was open-minded and sympathetic toward women, only to find out what a creep he actually is. And worse than Heechul, god forbid if they end up someone like Yoochun or Seungri.

  • I'm sure we cannot use Korean dates as GG touring power on SK was always abysmally low. I wouldn't be surprised if mid-tier BGs like Treasure are still outselling huge GGs in Korea even today

  • I'm sure we cannot use Korean dates as GG touring power on SK was always abysmally low. I wouldn't be surprised if mid-tier BGs like Treasure are still outselling huge GGs in Korea even today

    I know, my love. It was just an example of It would probably be If the whole world had the same culture as Korea on that sense. Of just hardcore stanning/stanning one group and spending money on it.

  • Are you counting the increase in versions for both bgs and ggs which feeds the buying frenzy even more? So both bgs and ggs are doing more sales than ever before cause they are selling gazillion versions, some even dirt cheap. The way increase in million sellers is directly correlated to increase in versions is a fact most Kpop stans refuse to acknowledge.


    More sales are not necessarily an indication of more fandom but more about who has the most powerful C bars mass buying more versions.

    There is a consumption chart on Hanteo (almost all Chinese sales count towards Hanteo) which displays which albums are less expensive. Overall last year Nmixx were the only group who sold their album cheap enough to justify an increase in sales (their album was on average 7,5k won when most of 4th gen groups sells their albums in the 10-11k wons range)


    I don't know how much of those sales comes from Chinese bulk buying, I guess not many as most of Nmixx sales are post debut not by Chinese fans crowdfunding

  • I know, my love. It was just an example of It would probably be If the whole world had the same culture as Korea on that sense. Of just hardcore stanning/stanning one group and spending money on it.

    I guess we just have to wait


    If your theory is right, GGs will still have much less concern attendance and their sales are more likely to collapse after some years

  • There is a consumption chart on Hanteo (almost all Chinese sales count towards Hanteo) which displays which albums are less expensive. Overall last year Nmixx were the only group who sold their album cheap enough to justify an increase in sales (their album was on average 7,5k won when most of 4th gen groups sells their albums in the 10-11k wons range)


    I don't know how much of those sales comes from Chinese bulk buying, I guess not many as most of Nmixx sales are post debut not by Chinese fans crowdfunding

    Its not just expense, you picked one point from my whole argument. My main contention is versions and photocards obsession of kpop stans. You have been in kpop long enough supporting SM groups to know how much of sales are bulk bought from China. More versions feeds this frenzy even more.


    If anyone wants to do a thorough analysis of actual sales, they should determine how many of the sales were mass bought by c bars and do a version wise analysis for top ggs and bgs.


    For instance Aespa'a recent album has how many versions vs 17' recent album having how many versions and how much China contributed to both their sales.


    More the versions and more the bulk buying from C bars, more is the distortion.


    This is why better than album sales touring data matters and again I mean actual attendees not inflated ticket prices based gross. Do an average attendees per concert and you get an actual picture of the fandom.

  • Other than SKZ and TXT, 4th gen ggs are outselling the bgs. We have more ggs close or surpassing the 1m range, like aespa, lesserafim, idle, newjeans, itzy, even Nmixx is close too (850k last album). While for bgs, other than SKZ and TXT, we have enhypen and ateez and that's it. Maybe we gonna have more 1m seller bgs, with ZB1 and other predicted bgs from big companies debuting this year (pledis boys, zico group and sm bg)

    BND is not showing much SNS power, so I wonder how much they will move initially. My impression is it will take a while for them to get big, unlike Enhypen, who was an instant hit group thanks to I-Land hype


    I do believe SM new BG will smash hard. If NCT managed to sell 2 million with arguably the most hated singles discography among 3rd gen boy groups I have no doubt a full-fledged will be a huge success

  • Its not just expense, you picked one point from my whole argument

    Because it was the only point I wanted to address


    Regardless, Chinese bulk buying does not correlate with album versions because they are mostly not collecting the albums but instead using non shipping back nonsense to inflate the numbers. One version or 40, they will bulk buy all the same the cheapest version so to produce the biggest numbers


    The number of versions correlates a lot with JP and SK fans, because they are collectors and generally do not pay insane amount of shipping fees

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