The World Is Worth Fighting For - Mini Series Pt.1 (Introduction + first topic)

I will take my time to read this

I think cons of zoos really over power their benefits

For big marine animals, captivity is just cruel

Not sure why I got pinged for this, I am pro-zoo and have worked in animal conservation alongside zoos. A good zoo holds none of the cons spoken of and it isn't black and white. Are there a lot of downright awful zoos out there? Yes, especially in countries/states with poor animal welfare laws. They are considered roadside "zoos" and focus should be put on shutting them down. But without real zoos multiple species would already be extinct as in-situ conservation is not always possible. I agree that some species should not be kept at all including orcas and that standards should be raised for others like elephants and polar bears but overall reputable zoos do far more good than harm and are the main reason we have all of these species conservation projects in the first place. I also want to note here that my local small zoo alone has released over 700 Black Footed Ferrets into the wild. The reintroduction programs are there, they just don't often get the spotlight that they deserve

Also living in the wild isn't at all a blessing and is more a living hell for most species. They'd much rather live a relatively boring life than have to deal with disease, starvation, and poaching. Where is their info that all the animals in zoos are suffering? Where is their background in animal behavior? Stereotypical behaviors used to be a large problem but standards have far improved and current zoos do their best to provide constant varied enrichment so even that argument falls flat. Some older animals may still display these behaviors as habit but there is nothing that zoo teams can do in those cases

Anyway, just saying that I am in the zoo sphere and can answer any questions you may have. I am very open to them

Also with Pro argument 1: Research it is completely anti-pet as well. Do you truly believe that nobody should own dogs or cats because we control them?

Quote from ani07

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First of all since I am US based I do not know what zoos in Europe look like. There are loads of differences between continents especially in regards to management. For example in the US the AZA has banned the use of bullhooks which is one of the points you talk about and instead has gone full no-contact positive reinforcement.

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I respect that u are pro-zoo, but for me this is a bit short sighted. there are studies and everything that say the opposite.

And there are a great many studies that are the opposite of your views as well. The important thing is to check sources and for biased media.

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this is also not true. idk from which country you are from, but even in european countries which all have supposedly good animal welfare laws (I`m from germany), the enclosures for mammals are always too small. animal researchers confirm that. I know zoos in big cities which have too small enclosures, I would not call them 'roadsite'. but I agree that especially bad zoos should be shut down.

I won't argue that zoos have had histories of neglect due to lack of knowledge but I have been to a dozens different zoos in the past few years and have only met people going leaps and bounds to learn from their past mistakes and do what is best for the animals. While a few exhibits here are still on the smaller side due to lack of funding they are often right next on the chopping block when they get the opportunity to expand. Things have changed and the standards for exhibits look more like this:

and less like this

Hopefully your country follows suit

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I`m glad you think that, but still. I see no reason to keep them for our entertainment. like I mentioned, there are studies that show that ppl go out of the zoo dumber than before. I know there is a possibility to raise awareness about the animals with a zoo visit. but do you really need zoos do create awareness? there are different options. honestly I wish there was school subject on the matter (about animal protection, climate changes etc). anyways, if we want to keep zoos, we should improve the standard for all animals and change the concept of a zoo.

If people want to learn, they will learn and if people do not then there is no way to force them into learning (including school subjects). For the many children that do want to learn, zoos often encourage and push them into taking a career in zoology. I was one of those children! I do support the concept of an ecology based middle/high-school subject

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I`m glad to hear your local zoo is doing sth good. and I dont want to talk bad about zoos having those programs. like I said, there are animals were this works out and they can be released back into the wild. I think thats good, but not for the animals that can not brought back into the wild (liek tigers, lions and such) and those programs do not work. its useless for those animals.

but I still generally do not agree that 'reputable zoos' do more good than bad. those zoos still have too small enclosures, especially for mammals, for fish this is a different matter though. the enclosures are often big enough (not counting bigger fish like sharks though).

US zoos are phasing out randombred tigers which I think is a good thing! As you said keeping some of these species is pointless. Lions and Tigers are mainly there in order to keep the rest of the facility and programs running because as sad as it is, nobody will want to see a collection of the critically endangered species who need these programs the most if said species aren't "popular" or "interesting"

Man I really wish I could see what your zoos look like now because I can't judge without seeing . Funnily enough US aquariums often have the opposite problem of sharks getting a ton of space while the small species end up a bit overstocked

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I`m sad u think that way. the problem is that we see everything through a humans perspective. to make an extreme example: it happens a lot that male dolphins rape female dolphins (even to death). from a human perspective it is rape and a bad thing, but it might not be for nature, you know? for you, as a human, you think animals have a bad life in the wild, but this is nature, not the human mind. and I know I will repeat myself, but a lot of those bad conditions are human made.

I mean yeah it's natural but it still causes immense pain and discomfort? That's why female ducks have evolved against rape (not that it worked well, sadly and many are straight up killed by a group of horny males). I find it weird that you romanticize nature while in captivity the animals do not have to worry about many things. I've studied animals in the wild a lot and see a good deal of suffering just from simple things like mange or most often, road accidents. A lot of these bad conditions are in fact human made but we cannot changes things in a night. The places these animals roam won't suddenly be safe even if we put all our focus on it. Red Wolves are a great example since some have been released into a small area but guess what? Even with radio collars and all this media telling folks about this endangered species, the vast majority have been slain by hunters. Most people won't care about saving a species if that species has the potential to threaten their livelihood and that stands in every country. You can't just do purely in-situ conservation anymore or a lot of species would die out due to human hands or habitat loss

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thank you. I would really like to know in which zoos you worked in, as you are pro zoos for a reason. I know there are zoos in this world that try to change and do things differently, so i`m really interested in this.

as you might have already guessed I`m anti-zoo, but I still hope we can respect each other, as I know the ppl taking care of the animals in zoos are no bad ppl.

Mainly Louisville which is a very small zoo that was hit hard by covid but is trying their best to improve what needs improving. They have a lot of future plans and are very excited to see them come into fruition. The zoo once had a fairly pitiful looking Snow Leopard enclosure, though made slightly better by the old occupant being disabled and doing better with a smaller space. Recently they expanded into a lovely large exhibit with a ton of vertical space. I can't find a full picture but this is a bit of it. They also get the chance to walk around above guests for added enrichment! Every single time I go by now they are active and doing what Snow Leopards should do

Quote from ani07

I know the wolf problem here in europe too. I`m a big fan of wolfes and think they are really interesting animals and was really happy to hear a few years ago that they are coming back to germany. but the moment they came, ppl started to complain about them and their 'sheep'. I actually started to get interested in wolfes when I watched a documentary about yellow stone and their gray wolfes and how it impacted the nature in yellow stone.

I didnt really try to romanticize nature. I think nature can be really cruel, thats what I was trying to say.

Wolves would be so useful in so many parts of the US including where I live because all the natural predators for Deer/Elk are gone but of course hunters and farmers won't allow it A lot of the country has a massive deer overpopulation that not even hunting can keep under control but even then a wolf might take away that prized trophy buck they'd been stalking for years. So selfish

I like to think myself as environmentally responsible and do what I can to protect this beleaguered planet. I tend not to watch shows like this as they are too upsetting, and leaves me crying at the fate of so many animals demise either from our own hand or from climate change.

If we want to save this planet first we need another french revolution, but global. Guillotine for the rich.